Thank you

RedDogsBeg

are there some shared criteria amongst those who are female that are not shared with those that are male?

I asked a similar question on the previous thread. The answer I received was no - there is nothing all female people have in common that all male people do not (male and female taking Shon's constellation definition, rather than the dictionary definition). I think Positrans' reasoning was that we need to stop seeing things in binary terms.

However, like you, it does make me wonder how someone can identify as a woman rather than a man when there is nothing that apparently differentiates the two.

I am genuinely interested in the answer - honestly, I don't intend these questions to be 'gotchas', I am trying to piece together the logic. We are being asked to change laws on the basis of this ideology after all.

I am going to ask, even though I suspect I won't get an answer.

Positrans if woman, man, male and female are such undefinable, shifting, formless categories how have you come to the conclusion that you are female? According to you neither male nor female has any definitive meaning or criteria and is therefore meaningless but you are determined that you are female so you must be applying some criteria to this formless mass that you have decided you fit into, so what are they? do they change from individual to individual? are there some shared criteria amongst those who are female that are not shared with those that are male? if so, what are they? and if there are specific criteria how can they be formless and ever changing as you have previously asserted?

Well, I am wondering if we are all formless, loose, shifting constellations why we are bothering with sex segregation at all. Presumably the end goal of trans-ideology is mixed sex everything and the removal of all sex differentiation.

Funny how woman is formless, biological sex is many, many undefined things and yet the one thing that is rock solid and absolute is gender identity even though it means different things to different people cannot be defined and is enacted in a myriad of ways, female equally becomes definitive and very definitely not male when someone decides they are one and calls themselves one.

You mean it wouldn't count as rape if it happened to an old lady who clearly wasn't at risk of pregnancy

Nah, no woman could be this bloody stupid. This is just pisstaking now. Not very funny

Aye! The list grows...

Instead of arguing with the women here, Positrans, why don't you address those individuals?

An actual woman with a male body would understand why there was a problem bringing that male body into female spaces.

Although I guess if that woman had never had a female body they might have difficulty grasping it, I suppose. But quite a lot of people with male bodies seem to be able to figure it out regardless.

Yes "CuriousSamphire* if a trans woman were really a woman, or had any empathy at all, they would not want to force themselves into women's spaces when they KNOW they are causing distress, discomfort, or fear.

Thanks midge something else I forgot to clearly explain in my little rant.

It isn't a trans thing its most definitely a man thing!

No I don't think all transwomen have ulterior motives. It is generalising to suggest that.

I just see no evidence at all that I should interpret them any different to any man

Please be reassured that It's nothing to do with a person being trans anything.

JustSpeculation
Wow, thank you for the info about Esref Armagan - that is awesome! (as the thread's moved on, for others, he's a completely blind painter who understands colour. Mentioned as someone was trying to say that explaining gender identity was like explaining red to someone blind)

The only formless and shifting part of me is my arse.

the unmistakable tang of autumnal promise

Unfortunately Datun, you forget unwomen also think women are formless.

Remember back in March they tweeted this.

Women are multifaceted, intergenerational, international. They are limitless, formless ... women are the world.” - @aaronphilipxo, model & disability rights activist

Maybe Faye and this other activist inspired one another.

And Mary w’s statue was a formless mass too.

Why is it necessary for women to be suddenly ‘formless’ or ‘shifting’? Of course, to allow the accommodation of male needs.

They hate it when we say ‘no’.

So many brilliant posts from brilliant women on a thread thanking them. Very fitting.

Although, positrans, it appears to be only you and Shon Faye describing women as shifting constellations. So if you're basing rights on that description, it might only be you and Shon who get them.

Someone else might describe woman as a compilation of saucy stiletto-hood. Or the unmistakable tang of autumnal promise.

You'd better start a list.

Fuck! That made me more angry than I realised!

I haven't intimated any of that and don't think that any of you think that. Nor, as a feminist, do I. But you have. You asked those questions, apparently in all seriousness. Why ask if you didn't think they were possibilities? Poor distraction technique, at best!

I do think that a lot of you assume that any trans woman by default has a sinister ulterior motive, hence your use of the word "intimated" and the narratives you construct about my motivations. Well, from my perspective any man who says "I believe I am a woman and therefore I am" is tramping over the opinions, feelings and lived experiences of every woman who hears him. Every woman HAS to wonder why any man acts as he does. In many circumstances it is what keeps us relatively safe from physical harm. Most of us learn that at a young age, often pre-puberty. From being hugged by male relatives, friends etc to being groped by our peers, leered at, pinned into small spaces, grabbed, kissed, tweaked, fingered and raped ... by men.

Basically you are asking every woman you ever meet to discard decades of personal experience and safeguarding in order to avoid make you feel uncomfortable. And you wonder why many of us say No!

It REALLY is that basic. The cohort of human beings that are male pose a sadly ever present threat to the cohort of female humans. And we, the female cohort, have every right to protect ourselves from that!

All this TRA crap has just added to the ever present fight against sexual assault and rape, the casual, every day shit as well as the worst. From chance meetings to the CPS not prosecuting, from entitled boyfriends to men like Weinstein, from passers by to men who lurk... it is an absolute travesty that any part of TWAW was ever accepted. It only harms women.

I do think that a lot of you assume that any trans woman by default has a sinister ulterior motive, hence your use of the word "intimated" and the narratives you construct about my motivations.

We don't have to assume. Why would we ? You've stated over and over.

Women are a constellation of something so that males can appropriate the word and have access to women's sex based facilities.

Woman isn't a word that defines a sex based concept and so it is decoupled from biology in order to make biology irrelevant. Then the rights which are based on biology can be based on stuff like shifting constellations instead.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts Tyro

I find it fascinating the way these purported "gotchas" instead function more like a flashing neon sign saying "male socialisation- not an ounce of empathy with female experience and not the first clue what it is like as a woman to live with the ever present fear of male sexual violence."

Not. A. Clue.