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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Change in focus in equality policy...

141 replies

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 23:20

Lucy Fisher @LOS_Fisher
EXCL: Gvt has focused too heavily on “fashionable” race, sexuality & gender issues at expense of poverty & geographical disparities, Liz Truss will say tomo.

Overhaul of equalities policy will see pivot away from quotas, targets, unconscious bias training & diversity statements

In major policy reset speech, Truss will hit out at “identity politics, loud lobby groups & the idea of lived experience” in debate about a fairer society.

She will unveil new approach to equalities based on “freedom, choice, opportunity, & individual humanity & dignity”.

New equalities policy will seek to dovetail with PM’s “levelling up” agenda

Gvt will:
• look to move Equalities Hub from capital to the North
• launch equalities data project
• move Social Mobility Commission into Government Equalities Office

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2020/12/16/pivot-fashionable-race-sexuality-gender-issues-focus-poverty/
Pivot from 'fashionable' race, sexuality and gender issues to focus on poverty in equalities overhaul
Liz Truss hit out at identity politics and unconscious bias training, saying her policy reset will instead look at geographic disparities

Trying to think about down sides to this. Focusing on poverty is a key thing for women and the BAME community anyway.

It strikes me as occupying a space that Labour should be, given their roots and history.

This is definitely culture war related, but its also a sensible move, because it is an approach that is needed in many respects.

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QuentinWinters · 17/12/2020 16:49

I don't trust the Torys at all and I don't think undermining unconscious bias awareness and indirect discrimination is a good thing.
I think this is a backlash against the progress disadvantaged groups have made, namely women and people of non-white British heritage.
It means we can wrangle about data and what it means, rather than deal with discrimination.
Invisible Women shows that we don't collect data on how women are disadvantaged. So how are we going to tackle systematic sexism under this regime? I feel this could be a trojan horse deployed on GC feminists.....

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 16:48

@FWRLurker

I don’t know the UK political climate as well as the US but isn’t the Conservative party the party of austerity/small government in comparison to the others? Can they really claim with any kind of believability that they are going to put forth policy that really addresses poverty in a meaningful way?

If a republican in the US started talking about “individual choice” in the realm of economic equality I would know what they really mean is “I’m rich because I chose to be, you’re poor because you chose to be, so nothing needs doing”.

Traditionally yes.

HOWEVER a big shift has occurred in uk politics where the Conservative party have flipped from being economically conservative to be socially conservative. And this is now dominating uk politics rather than economic considerations (see brexit and johnson saying 'fuck business'). The converse has happened with the Labour party who were previously more socially conservative and in recent years under Blair tended to priortise business interests (the rise in neo-liberalism started under Blair not the coalition).

The public in the UK a majority lean towards socially conservative (its worth pointing out that in the UK even socially conservative people now support gay rights and the principle of womens right by a majority so this tends to be a difference with US politics which isn't as tolerant).

It was more neo-liberal in supporting free operation of business without the interference by government. This has also shifted somewhat. There is more desire to regulate and for protectionism than there was (even if this comes at a cost and is at odds with what is actually said), because soveignty.

Labour hasn't been terribly good at spotting and adapting to this shift.

Instead they are trying to push social values which are fundamentally at odds with the majority of the public. And therein lies their issues.

They have also in pushing for identity politics the public don't like, also been tone deaf to the associated economic issues. The 'most vulnerable in society', as a term used by Labour party activitists has been used to describe rather middle class well off individuals based on their identity rather than whether they actually are vulnerable.

So its a bit more of a complex answer in saying that the Tories support this and Labour support this.

The Conservatives are actually in many respects harking back to a period in their history prior to the rise of the Labour party where you had this working class blue collar group who tended a to have an old fashioned protestant attitude to hard work reaping reward. It also fits with rose tinted views of Victorian morality and ideas of philanthropy (rather than the state providing certain things). This isnt austerity. It has similarities but is more Cameron's failed vision of Big Society but revamped. Johnson himself is quite keen on the idea of big infrustructive projects too - similar to the construction of Britain in the 1800s. The problem with this is a lack of resources to be able to do this though...

How uk politics have shifted - and differ from the US, perhaps diverging in ways that havent really been well identified - is a really fascinating subject.

The Tories tend to have been able to define what they stand and to be crucially connect that to the relevance of peoples lives in a way that Labour haven't. Labour is adrift having abandoned its historical roots and purpose and have lost touch with the relevance of the publics' life. In other words when is the concept of 'lived experience' really reflective of the lived experience of the public or just a buzz phrase to silence people who don't share the same political values?

Sorry, I'm rambling a bit.

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teawamutu · 17/12/2020 16:44

Highly interested that she makes a point of quoting three PCs: sex, race and gender reassignment.

Given the deliberate conflation of the first and last by Stonewall et al, it seems significant.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 17/12/2020 16:38

I mentioned this on a separate thread, but I think it's canny messaging designed to put clear blue water between the Tories and Labour on identity politics which doesn't play well with the average constituent in the Blue Wall seats where they're looking to entrench support. Labour aren't going to win the next election if they can't regain Bolsover. This is 'no nonsense', 'common sense', saying what everyone's really thinking messaging. No more talking shops and distractions - we're going to roll our sleeves up and get down to business. Whether you think they'll improve social mobility or not with this approach, I think she's reading the room. Maybe also positioning herself as future leader material. There was a V positive article about Truss in the Independent about how she's the unsung hero of Brexit trade deals this week.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 17/12/2020 16:30

Why have the examples of unintended consequences (single sex spaces, Rotherham etc) been left out of the official transcript?
which states on the page "Delivered on:
17 December 2020 (Transcript of the speech, exactly as it was delivered)"

www.gov.uk/government/speeches/fight-for-fairness

JustSpeculation · 17/12/2020 16:16

JK Rowling recently quoted JK Galbraith to the effect that real leadership involves directly addressing the major fears and concerns of those you want to lead. Truss seems to be building herself a profile and position on the less feral side of the Tory party by doing just that. Lots of good stuff in that speech, and it's really good to see the BS confronted.

She damned Foucault by name! Yay!

That said, she remains a Tory, and I don't think we can expect her to go all centre left on this. However, if it looks like the Tories could actually benefit from this explicit rejection of identity politics, it could strengthen Starmer's hand. Now that the Lib Dems have gone off skipping hand in hand through their bizarre alternate realities, we really are back with two parties only.

sashagabadon · 17/12/2020 16:11

Yes as a general rule (smaller state, more pulling yourself up by your own bootstraps sort of thing, lower taxes) compared to Labour ( bigger state, more government intervention as a positive thing, higher taxes)
but I would also think the Conservatives in the U.K. are actually to the left of the US democrats on many things - supporting state provided healthcare the obvious example. Imo Boris is a liberal really and no politicians here of any persuasion do God Grin

FWRLurker · 17/12/2020 16:05

(In the US context there would be the additional “god ordained it thusly” component which I understand you Brits thankfully do not engage in”)

FWRLurker · 17/12/2020 16:03

I don’t know the UK political climate as well as the US but isn’t the Conservative party the party of austerity/small government in comparison to the others? Can they really claim with any kind of believability that they are going to put forth policy that really addresses poverty in a meaningful way?

If a republican in the US started talking about “individual choice” in the realm of economic equality I would know what they really mean is “I’m rich because I chose to be, you’re poor because you chose to be, so nothing needs doing”.

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 15:47

Yeah I think its less about what they say they don't like and what they will actually do.

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MedusasBadHairDay · 17/12/2020 15:46

There's a lot about what they won't do, and very little about what they will do to address inequality in that speech.

Packingsoapandwater · 17/12/2020 15:43

I reckon Truss realised the situation when she received bucket loads of mail from women all over the country.

I am hopeful about this. Ordinary people of all colours and creeds are just sick of the endless wokery and identitarism.

The narrative of privilege has caused great upset in some mixed race families I know: people feel as though their deep love and care for their children and grandchildren has been attacked, and such attacks have been tacitly supported by the establishment.

It's all so destructive. It's a war against most people's good natures.

TimeLady · 17/12/2020 15:38

I know many of you don't like/trust the Conservatives, but it might be worth reflecting on the deep shit we would now be in if the Labour Party under Corbyn had won the election this time last year.

sashagabadon · 17/12/2020 15:37

She was top, not too

sashagabadon · 17/12/2020 15:37

Liz Truss is riding high in the conservative members polls right now. I saw a recent one where she was too with a score of + 75!
By contrast Boris was about + 3.
Not sure if it is this brief or more likely the trade stuff but either way she is a very popular minister right now amongst the Tories. Maybe this is a case of strike while the iron is hot?

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 17/12/2020 15:29

Wow

Imnobody4 · 17/12/2020 15:27

I'm rather shocked but on balance I'm in agreement. There's still a lot of details to discuss but at least no one is shouting no debate in your face.

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/12/2020 15:25

In addition, this focus on groups at the expense of individuals has led to harmful unintended consequences. It has led to the Left turning a blind eye to practices that undermine equality, whether it be failing to defend single-sex spaces, hard fought for by generations of women… enabling and tolerating antisemitism … or the appalling grooming of young girls in towns like Rotherham.

Study after study has shown that unconscious bias training does not improve equality, and in fact can backfire by reinforcing stereotypes and exacerbating biases. That’s why this week we announced we will no longer be using it in government or civil service.

Whether it’s “affirmative action” … forced training on “unconscious bias” … or lectures on “lived experience” … the Left are in thrall to ideas that undermine equality at every turn.

This school of thought says that if you are not from an ‘oppressed group’ then you are not entitled to an opinion … and that this debate is not for you. I wholeheartedly reject this approach.

I am calling time on “pink bus” feminism, where women are left to fix sexism and campaign for childcare.

we need the equality debate to be led by facts … not by fashion. Time and time again, we see politicians making their own evidence-free judgements.

…….. I think she's nailed all of this, and there's little to disagree with.

We will not limit our fight for fairness to the nine protected characteristics laid out in the 2010 Equality Act … which include sex, race, and gender reassignment. While it is true people in these groups suffer discrimination, the focus on protected characteristics has led to a narrowing of the equality debate that overlooks socio-economic status and geographic inequality...….In addition to race, sex, disability and religion, (this project) will also look at issues around geography, community and socio-economic background..

In addition to.

WootMoggie · 17/12/2020 15:23

It's well worth watching the speech itself.
Really puts the boot in, where the boot was needed.

yourhairiswinterfire · 17/12/2020 15:22

Thanks Red.

"It has led to the Left turning a blind eye to practices that undermine equality, whether it be failing to defend single-sex spaces, hard fought for by generations of women… enabling and tolerating antisemitism … or the appalling grooming of young girls in towns like Rotherham."

There's going to be some tantrums over that, I bet...

RedToothBrush · 17/12/2020 15:06

I apologise for the source, but guido fawkes have a transcript of the speech:

order-order.com/2020/12/17/read-in-full-liz-trusss-landmark-anti-woke-speech/

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MichelleofzeResistance · 17/12/2020 14:59

And I can see by this point that the govt are really, really fed up with gender identitarianism and with women being really pissed off with them about it. I'm sure they'd like it all to just go away.

The problem is that if they think this is an easier third way than growing a backbone and setting down boundaries, and being prepared to withstand the tantrums, they're wrong. That boundary will be pushed for until it's found, and as they've already discovered, the longer they leave it, the bigger the mess gets that they will have to eventually face up to.

MichelleofzeResistance · 17/12/2020 14:54

The Equalities Act was the hoovering up of lots of bits of legislation and tying it together with equality duties etc. I could see an argument for saying to release it back into its separate legislations: for example going back to the disability discrimination act, but losing that centralised system. The protections in there are tied in to a lot of other bits of legislation which would not go away: there are a LOT of things they would have to re draft from scratch if they did this, and to me that makes it unlikely. Likewise many other bits associated with each protected characteristic. I could see an argument that stuffing all those bits into the one bucket has not gone anywhere useful on reflection, and they did better in their separate legislations.

stumbledin · 17/12/2020 14:45

Will also be interesting to see how far Liz Truss gets with undoing the woke thinking within the Civil Service.

I started a thread about the consultation on home abortions (which nobody read!) but also pointed out that in the briefing for this consultation they state that it is about "people" who get pregnant!!!!!!!!!
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4107152-Home-use-of-both-pills-for-early-medical-abortion-up-to-10-weeks-gestation-Government-Consultation

stumbledin · 17/12/2020 14:39

I dont think there is any suggestion of doing away with the EA just saying that those who try and make equality only a tick box exercise about the (current) protected characteristics.

And whilst I can see how tempting it would be to think that doing away with "shouty groups" if that meant Stonewall and Mermaids, need to be aware they could equally be WPUK and others.

Not sure why someone up thread thought anyone was saying this would be better for women.

Just that in fact the issue of finding equality for women is not just about the impact of trans rights on women's rights, is also about making sure women have the same rights in all areas that men do.

But I think for the Tories this means the tired old them that those who try hard will always suceed.

Not sure who did their training but of all places, particularly the HoC people need to be made aware that their experience of the world is not THE experience of the world for the vast majority of people.

As the always used to say "never trust a tory", but the problem is who can you trust.

Sad
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