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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Christingle becomes transphobic. Apparently.

157 replies

Defaultname · 16/12/2020 18:05

Christingle, which I'd never heard of, meant a lot to this family until...

",,,as the queer and transgender father of a two-year-old, I visited the church’s website. I was hoping to find a message of inclusivity, something to reassure me that the welcome I had taken for granted my whole life still applied to the person I am and the family I have today. The “What we believe” sections were vague. So I tried a reverse approach, since it has the kind of graphic design and web presence that suggest affiliation to bigger, well-endowed networks. Google pointed me to a UK organisation called the Evangelical Alliance. I typed my postcode into its “Find a church” tool and the first result was our Christingle church.

In the EA’s news archive, I found a press release about the importance of rejecting Gender Recognition Act reform, a process that was aimed at making the lives of trans adults less bureaucratic. There were pieces about why “gay cakes” are a threat to free speech and then there was a video.

It started off very gently and compassionately, talking about “inclusion” and “understanding”. Just as I started to feel reassured, the presenter began describing “transgender” as “confused” and an “ideological movement”. He talked ominously about genitalia and so-called spectrums, and questioned whether, if a trans person were to call a church to ask about gender-neutral toilet provision, it might well be “a coordinated effort to catch the church out”. www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2020/dec/16/i-used-to-love-christingle-until-i-discovered-what-my-church-thought-of-trans-people

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justawoman · 17/12/2020 07:41

As a regular churchgoer I bloody hate Christingles. I don’t see that they have any spiritual significance or proper tradition behind them. But they bring I. The crowds, people seem to love them for some reason, plus more importantly they raise money for the Children’s Society, so they’re probably worth it. I avoid them like the plague, though. Given me Nine Lessons and Carols (ok, that’s an invented tradition too, going back only to the 1920s) and Midnight Mass any day.

IDontMindMarmite · 17/12/2020 07:36

I'm feeling sore that we never had Christingles in our English C of E church growing up. It was so boring, that might have been fun. I had to google it and it is a cop out that it was basically created to appeal to children.

BreatheAndFocus · 17/12/2020 07:33

Narcissism writ large, and a complete lack of self-awareness.

justawoman · 17/12/2020 07:02

As someone who’s spent time in the US I can confirm it’s possible to have an all you can eat buffet at church. In fact, in my experience, you were barred from leaving the building after the service until you’d been seen to eat at least two full platters from the buffet.

Even in this country bring and share suppers and similar events are common, though as someone else said, they do tend to involve a lot of quiche.

I bet there are churches offering poetry slams too, though the cringeometer is probably off the scale.

PotholeParadies · 17/12/2020 05:35

Never have I seen, "I'm not a Christian but I like Christmas" padded out into quite so many words, and we're talking about an annual winter staple of the journalist with a deadline to meet.

Mummyoflittledragon · 17/12/2020 04:44

@nickymanchester

There are any number of issues with the article but I'll leave that to one side.

I actually watched the video he linked to and it was far from being transphobic. This was typical of the content:-

If you have met one transgender person, you have met one transgender person. No two experiences are the same.

Although, to be totally fair, some of the attitudes expressed were a bit Hmm - I'm not religious at all - but, leaving that aside, the advice they gave in the video I could totally get behind, for example:-

There are also practical steps we as churches must address. Providing toilets that are clearly accessible to trans people will be an important part of welcoming people into our churches or our charitable organisations. Placing a "Toilet Access For All" sign on an individual disabled toilet was considered helpful by a number of trans groups that we spoke with.

In relation to changing facilities and residentials; the best advice is to discuss the matter with those concerned. There is no single, simple recommended or legal solution.

There is significant scientific and medical disagreement in this area. An NHS publication on gender identity clinics notes that "There are currently no agreed measures of success or patient outcome measures. This makes determining good patient care ... very difficult"

[Note - this video dates from a couple of years ago - well before the Keira Bell case]. The video goes on to claim:-

There are some important trends that are worth knowing about. The first is that referral rates are up over 1,000% during the last six years, although that starts from a very low base so that statistic is slightly skewed.

The second is that the average age of referral has gone up and that is linked to the third, a shift from 58% of children born male attending the clinic to now it's almost 70% of children born female.

So, basically, it used to be younger boys who were going to the transgender clinic and now it's older teenage girls who are going and that is linked to this rise in rapid onset gender dysphoria where teenage girls are attending and they often know one another and there are fears about a social contagion effect.

And the fourth is that 80% of those children who attend Tavistock before adolescence are likely to eventually change their minds and revert to their birth sex. Conversely, for those who come during adolescence, the figures are reversed and about 80% pursue gender reassignment.

So, it used to be young boys who attended the clinic and they were less likely to go through with it, now it's older girls who are attending the clinic and they are more likely to pursue reassignment.

The video then goes on to explain about puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and surgery in an accurate and non-judgmental way although it does say that even the Tavistock admitted that it had no idea about the long term effects of such treatment.

Then there was a claim they made that I don't know where they got it from but I would want to follow it up as (although I do believe it is likely) it does sound as though it may be as robust as the trans suicide figures promoted by Mermaids et al are (in other words, not robust at all):-

And, sadly, while rates for attempting suicide for those who identify as trans are very high - 27% of trans young people compared with 11% of all young people - it should be noted that those who have had transition surgery are 19 times more likely to die by suicide than average. So transition is, sadly, rarely the answer.

The video then goes on about various legal issues which, quite presciently given that this was from 2018, covered things like consent and free speech.

I am not religious at all (quite the opposite of religious in fact) but the ending of the video made me stop and think that perhaps not all churches are as bad as I thought they were:-

Finally, what should the church's responses look like? The church must respond with compassion. The church can be [can be Hmm?], and often is, a place of welcome for everyone, especially those who feel marginalised.

The journey to reconciliation between somebody's body and their experience of their identity can often be long and painful. We need to be prepared to offer them and their families long term support and care.

This does not negate the church's discipleship role, particularly among those engaged in the wider trans movement which is often at odds with the biblical response.

Secondly, the church must seek clarity in this difficult area. Whilst we seek to support those struggling with gender dysphoria we can resist and oppose forms of transgender ideology that offer alternative and radically non-Christian ideas about what it means to be human [I wonder if he means as in "adult female"].

The church must be careful to respond pastorally to individuals whilst recognising the challenges and complexities surrounding transgender.

And finally, the church should, with humility, give voice to some of its concerns. The church, like many others, is cautious about the rush to invasive and non-reversible medication and procedures - particularly in children. [again - this was from two years ago]

Many Christians will also sympathise with concerns being raised by womens groups and others about both the safety of women, for example in womens refuges, but more fundamentally about their very identity being challenged.

There is an ever present danger of being misheard in an increasingly divisive public conversation and so we must seek to build good relationships and ensure that we speak with grace and respect at all times.

OK, so they do actually go on a bit about God (well, hey, they are a church) but that video was not transphobic at all and, if anything, was a lot more respectful than some comments that appear on mumsnet from time to time.

Overall, I really do think that this Guardian columnist was looking for something to be offended about.

No such thing as disabled toilets. As a disabled person myself, why the fuck should trans people be given access to accessible toilets?
borntobequiet · 17/12/2020 04:16

Pomander was a breed of dog!

For some reason I find that v funny

FWRLurker · 17/12/2020 02:46

A trans 2 year old??

Most kids that age literally do not know their own or other peoples anatomical sex, what genitals they or others have, let alone the sociological definition of gender / gender stereotypes

What is wrong with people.

VulvaPerson · 17/12/2020 02:06

I was hoping to find a message of inclusivity, something to reassure me that the welcome I had taken for granted my whole life still applied to the person I am and the family I have today.

How bloody self centred. Why on earth would anyone expect something like this really?! Hmm

BlackeyedSusan · 17/12/2020 01:55

You can definitely have an all you can eat buffet in church. (Often with a lot of quiche.)

InTheShadowOfTheMushroomCloud · 17/12/2020 01:34

Aw come on! Don't you know ?

EVERY THING IS TRANSPHOBIC!

Defaultname · 17/12/2020 01:29

The story that the journey to Bethlehem was due to a census being undertaked raises another set of problems.

Gender of child?
Sex of child?
Father's name?

OP posts:
ErrolTheDragon · 17/12/2020 00:47

Still, at least Freddy isn't personally offended by the whole Christmas story, what with the idea that even god couldn't magic up a son without a mother.

Defaultname · 17/12/2020 00:28

@ErrolTheDragon

Ah, a lovely seasonal tale of two irrational dogmas, some weirdly decorated fruit, and a chance of a nice warm blaze...

I'm just shocked by the heretical idea that Dolly Mixtures are god's creations, I'm sure they're Bassett's Shock

For ages I was under the impression that if I asked for "all boys" when I ordered 4 oz. of Jelly Babies, I'd get penies for my pennies. Of course, it didn't work out that way, since they were sold by weight. Mind you, aren't Jelly Babies asexual, poss. non-binary? Are churces skewering them with-get this-cocktail sticks, to symbolise what they want to do to (ahem) real non-binary people?
OP posts:
DeRigueurMortis · 17/12/2020 00:28

@ErrolTheDragon

Ah, a lovely seasonal tale of two irrational dogmas, some weirdly decorated fruit, and a chance of a nice warm blaze...

I'm just shocked by the heretical idea that Dolly Mixtures are god's creations, I'm sure they're Bassett's Shock

The standout for me is the sense of entitlement in expecting a church that you only visit once a year due to nostalgia to accommodate a fervent belief for your own doctrine...

The determination to "prove" transphobia through "research" having not experienced any is just bizarre.

If they'd gone to Christingle nothing would have happened apart from a nice time - but that doesn't seem worthy of a column does it?

7Days · 16/12/2020 23:57

Thanks for your post nickymanchester , theres feck all there to be offended by, if you're approaching in good faith.

RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 23:54

Who thinks Fred walked into that Church with an open mind and not looking for the slightest thing to 'prove transphobia' and validate Fred oppression?

Cos Fred is all about accepting people for who they are.

ErrolTheDragon · 16/12/2020 23:53

Ah, a lovely seasonal tale of two irrational dogmas, some weirdly decorated fruit, and a chance of a nice warm blaze...

I'm just shocked by the heretical idea that Dolly Mixtures are god's creations, I'm sure they're Bassett's Shock

merrymouse · 16/12/2020 23:51

"I used to love the Conservative party bring and buy sales, but last year was the first time that I felt I could not buy a coffee and walnut cake because it became clear to me that these people might be Tories".

PlantMam · 16/12/2020 23:47

Extract:

Its acceptance of us would always be reliant on my and – it pains me to even write – my child’s acceptance of some innate shame.

If Fred thinks the happy clappers are too shame-y, Fred needs to check out the (whispers) Catholics.
All babies are born sinners, Fred.
That’s why they get baptised.

Blibbyblobby · 16/12/2020 23:40

I got 2 pages in before I realised Cristingle is not Kris Kingle. Was very confused by the oranges.

tiktok · 16/12/2020 23:40

Great thread - a mix of piss-take and proper information :)

I notice that Freddy is now bylined as Fred.

I also notice that Fred has made the whole flippin thing about Fred, and what Fred wants to happen at Xmas.

I don't think there is anything especially wrong with rocking up at a church for the entertainment value, as long as you're not drunk or expecting something the church cannot provide like a poetry slam or an ice dance or a rap contest or an all-U-can-eat-Buffet .... or an express validation of your particular beliefs.

There are almost as many varieties of church as there are genders, so it shouldn't be hard to find one which fits the bill.

PlantMam · 16/12/2020 23:36

Google image search throws up some very decadent looking Cristingles.

This sad tin foiled one is closer to reality.

Christingle becomes transphobic. Apparently.
Christingle becomes transphobic. Apparently.
RedToothBrush · 16/12/2020 23:33

"Oooo talking about Right Wing Religious prejudice is the latest trans trend I must board the bandwagon of and connect to every ridicilous aspect of life I can possibly think of. In no way does this smack of reading far too much American based shit on the internet and living a life so priviledged to be detatched from reality. How can I show my oppression in the latest fashion? Write I know I'm write a load of waffle about it for the Guardian really earnestly and sincerely and lots of outraged from Didsbury will all want to give me attention. And it will generate lots of click bait income for the newspaper."

Defaultname · 16/12/2020 23:26

Some of these Christingle items sound a bit Blue Peter.

"and here's an offended non-binary person I prepared earlier...".

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