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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

What is womanly? What is manly?

66 replies

JellySlice · 13/12/2020 00:13

The attributes and behaviours which we describe as womanly or as manly are all generally positive things that both women and men can have/do, without diminishing their femininity or their masculinity.

So why is it that the terms womanly and manly are negative when applied to the other sex? Then they seem to have completely different meanings.

OP posts:
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GuiEtVin · 14/12/2020 17:07

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the request of the OP.

borntobequiet · 14/12/2020 17:00

Words, to the listener, mostly mean what the listener thinks they mean, in my experience. Consequently I often check that they have properly understood my meaning.
I know a number of men who wouldn’t think swinging a punch was in any way a manly thing to do, because a proper manly man is able to exercise restraint. So your interpretation of manly certainly doesn’t square with theirs.

CatsCantCatchCriminals2 · 14/12/2020 14:39

That's how I see it too shedbuilder

Shedbuilder · 14/12/2020 14:17

But words mean what they mean, not what we'd like them to mean in an ideal world, and you don't have to look far to see that a manly man, or a proper man, has always been the kind of man capable of swinging a punch. Indeed men who can't/ won't do that are even to this day often deemed unmanly, even if that word isn't actually used. How often do we hear of shy, quiet, gentle boys and young men being toughened up ('We'll make a man of you') by being sent to judo classes or boxing or soccer. Indeed, it brings us back to transgender issues and all those transwomen who as little boys were attracted to dolls and dressing up and hanging out with girls and thought they must be girls/women because they didn't fit male stereotypes.

borntobequiet · 14/12/2020 13:30

Lots of manly men prove their manliness by knocking other people about.

It depends on your interpretation of manliness. Mine wouldn’t include a propensity to mindless violence.

Shedbuilder · 14/12/2020 13:20

Why is it helpful? I'm really surprised posters think there is a need to describe what happened as "manly".

This has reminded me of the time I saw a pizza delivery guy get knocked off his moped on Highgate West Hill. It was drizzly evening and I took off my coat and covered him to stop him getting wet. Another woman dialled 999 and another couple of women stopped the traffic and then directed it around him. We had everything under control by the time a couple of men got involved. The men didn't offer me a coat or suggest I put mine back on and offer to cover the victim with theirs. Does this mean I was more manly than them?

OP, you seem to have old-fashioned gendered ideas of how men and women should behave. The 'mensch' comment indicates where that comes from. Lots of manly men prove their manliness by knocking other people about.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/12/2020 12:00

I'm wondering if the OPs thinking around this may derive in part (a) from having a granny who could use the word 'mentsch' and then (b) seeing this as more or less synonymous with 'manly'. It appears it should be an ungendered term despite the syllable 'men' - 'man' meant 'human' in old English, mensch likewise in German.

Mensch (Yiddish: מענטש‎, mentsh, derived from German: mensch, 'human being', from Middle High German mensch, from Old High German mennisco; akin to Old English man human being, man) means "a person of integrity and honor."

DidoLamenting · 14/12/2020 10:53

@ChestnutStuffing

So? It's just an example of the kind of use of the word manly she was trying to describe. A helpful one IMO as it's a bit different than the english sense of manly and it clarified what she was trying to say.

The actual character of the guy isn't important.

Why is it helpful? I'm really surprised posters think there is a need to describe what happened as "manly".

I can't see that it is helpful at all ; quite the opposite. It is imposing gendered ideas where it is completely irrelevant

borntobequiet · 14/12/2020 10:20

Having slept on it and looked up a few Dickens quotes (there’s a particularly affecting use of the word womanly in a description of Nancy in Oliver Twist), I think these words are as someone upthread suggested, primarily about virtue and secondarily about physical characteristics.
I think it’s nice that we can describe both sexes as womanly or manly as far as their best characteristics are concerned. Kindness, patience, tolerance, courage and fortitude can be found in both, but perhaps in different flavours. A man will never have to find the courage to face childbirth, but he will have to find courage of a different sort to support his wife or partner through it. In times past, a man might be more likely to have to face physical danger in his job, or in combat. (Though it would be nice to ignore what are now called gender roles, they do exist and are unlikely to disappear.)
As far as physical characteristics are concerned, a woman’s body develops from girlish to womanly (in most cases), and a man’s from boyish to manly. It signifies maturity, as does the development (one hopes) of the characteristics mentioned above.

ChestnutStuffing · 14/12/2020 04:16

So? It's just an example of the kind of use of the word manly she was trying to describe. A helpful one IMO as it's a bit different than the english sense of manly and it clarified what she was trying to say.

The actual character of the guy isn't important.

DidoLamenting · 14/12/2020 01:48

@ChestnutStuffing

I don't see that it's relevant at all whether anyone else would have done it, it was the grandmother's comment that was the point of the anecdote.
Well yes but that both the grandmother and the OP think it was a "manly" thing to do.
ChestnutStuffing · 14/12/2020 00:50

I don't see that it's relevant at all whether anyone else would have done it, it was the grandmother's comment that was the point of the anecdote.

DidoLamenting · 14/12/2020 00:16

@JellySlice

You would hope that anyone would do the obvious sensible thing - but most people don't. You would hope that anyone would recognise that the casualty is the priority - but many people would want you to recognise their 'heroism', too.

And I didn't report him as a mentsh - that was his granny's description of his actions. As ChestnutStuffing put it: a very good example of a man.

It's a very good example of a sensible person. I really have no idea why the sex of the heroic temporary coat donor is relevant.

Again, no disrespect to your friend but I also strongly disagree that most people would not have done this.

JellySlice · 14/12/2020 00:11

You would hope that anyone would do the obvious sensible thing - but most people don't. You would hope that anyone would recognise that the casualty is the priority - but many people would want you to recognise their 'heroism', too.

And I didn't report him as a mentsh - that was his granny's description of his actions. As ChestnutStuffing put it: a very good example of a man.

OP posts:
DidoLamenting · 13/12/2020 23:54

@JellySlice

That despite being gay he has good qualities?

No. That despite not being masculine he had good, manly, qualities.

stripesnomore , I think you are right.

Again, no disrespect to your friend but putting one's coat over an injured person whilst waiting for an ambulance is hardly Saving Private Ryan territory.

It was the obvious, sensible thing to do but it hardly merits being reported back as being "a mentsh".

ChestnutStuffing · 13/12/2020 23:25

Yes, I think that's the idea too, then.

In another setting, someone might say, "ah, that man/woman who helped that person was very humane".

In this case you are saying, essentially that they are a very good example of a man or woman. I would say that it is probably not a really common way to use the words in English but it might happen in certain contexts.

I don't think I have a problem with that usage, or think it is sexist. Some people would prefer humane because it doesn't reference our sex, but I don't think it's necessary to pretend that sex doesn't exist, that we are not good men or good women. It would also be fine to talk about good people, but I've become wary of people insisting that it is better or necessary to speak that way.

Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 23:04

In that case, I think that it would be similar to when we talk about something like English values. What makes decent English values is probably very similar to what the French thinks makes decent French values. But a French person wouldn’t want to be told they have decent English values, because they are proud of being French. In the same way I don’t want to be called a decent manly woman because I am proud of being a decent woman, even though it is very similar to being a decent man!

JellySlice · 13/12/2020 22:22

That despite being gay he has good qualities?

No. That despite not being masculine he had good, manly, qualities.

stripesnomore , I think you are right.

OP posts:
Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 22:00

OP, is what you are describing a bit like in films set in the Georgian period?

Where if a woman acted in a very calm and kind manner she would be described as a ladylike woman and if a man acted in a calm and kind manner, he would be described as a gentlemanlike man?

So the behaviour is the same but the adjective is different?

DidoLamenting · 13/12/2020 21:39

@JellySlice

The gay friend I mentioned came out to his rather old-fashioned Jewish family in the early 90s. They struggled to accept it in a "We love you but we don't understand you are you sure?" way.

When I told them about the cyclist and the way my friend had helped him, the granny's response was "I always knew

Always knew what?

That her grandson would be a good person to have at an accident scene?

That despite being gay he has good qualities?

JellySlice · 13/12/2020 21:36

Oops

The granny's response was "I always knew he was a mentsh." Mentsh being the Yiddish word for man, but meaning more than just a biological designation. Meaning a man to be proud of, a man who behaves with honour and respect.

OP posts:
JellySlice · 13/12/2020 21:32

The gay friend I mentioned came out to his rather old-fashioned Jewish family in the early 90s. They struggled to accept it in a "We love you but we don't understand you are you sure?" way.

When I told them about the cyclist and the way my friend had helped him, the granny's response was "I always knew

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 13/12/2020 21:16

@borntobequiet

Womanly = like an adult human female. Manly = like an adult human male.
I will help OP out by quoting myself (have always wanted to do that)
SciFiScream · 13/12/2020 21:15

Hmmm. I'm a woman. I have often been told that I walk and run like a man.

Does that help? I'm a manly woman in that sense?

Stripesnomore · 13/12/2020 20:50

So is that what is happening here? Are you attempting to be poetic OP? Given that we are on the internet, I am not misreading body language.

As far as I understood it, you were asking why people didn’t use the word womanly to describe men, but people were confused by what you thought manly and womanly meant.

The confusion lay in a. you describing someone dealing calmly with an rta as manly and b. you saying manly and womanly traits are often the same.

Do you want to try and explain further what you think the words mean? I am quite happy for your meaning to be wholly subjective, as long as you actually give a meaning of some kind.

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