Would you ok your son wearing a dress?

Is it true of boys in the middle years or early puberty or teens? Maybe, but there is some indications that things like fetishes can begin in those periods, and they are often related to chance exposure. It's not something that is very comfortable to talk about, but I don't know that it isn't relevant to people's feelings of caution.

Isn't a fetish usually based on the taboo? So remove the taboo around men wearing dresses and you remove the potential for said fetish? I imagine there aren't Scottish men with kilt fetishes, because men wearing them is entirely acceptable. Happy to be proven wrong because I don't know much about the psychology of fetishes.

Has been very honest, unlike some people..... trying to deflect their answers, which I’m not altogether sure I believe on an Internet forum

Could you quote this? I'm not sure if you mean me.

Has been very honest, unlike some people..... trying to deflect their answers, which I’m not altogether sure I believe on an Internet forum.

I think it is disingenuous. I'm honest enough to admit I would have let my son wear a dress if he wanted, but I do not want a partner who wears dresses.

Well that means it's not disingenuous, don't you see? Because you genuinely would let your son wear a dress even though you'd not want a romantic partner to do so. I'm arguing with those suggesting that people who say they'd let their son wear a dress are in fact lying and just saying it to be cool because they'd not want their partner to wear one.

Is it true of boys in the middle years or early puberty or teens? Maybe, but there is some indications that things like fetishes can begin in those periods, and they are often related to chance exposure. It's not something that is very comfortable to talk about, but I don't know that it isn't relevant to people's feelings of caution.

I have serious doubts that it is realistic to ever have non-gendered things like clothing. There are societies where clothing is almost identical, but that is usually because there is limited capacity to differentiate. And there are still typically other visible markers of gender in those cultures, language use, body decoration, mannerisms, the physical body itself may be more visible, activities may be more gendered. Where there have been attempts to suppress things like gender expression in clothing, people tend to subvert it as soon as they can get away with it.

People in general are too interested in sex and the differences it involves to stop making reference to them in material culture.

You're spot on. You'd cover the tattoo you wouldn't display it. You'd wear the trousers to conform to what was expected - not wear the dress. Because it'd be inappropriate

If I'm completely honest, I don't think I would cover it in the same way the other poster wouldn't get tattoos at all. I'd probably fit into the category of "if you don't want to employ me because I have tattoos then I don't want to be employed by you". But I'm quite a brash person by nature I think, and I have a harder time with conformity. I'm just hoping we get to a point of everyone being allowed to wear what they like to wear when appropriate, because in this context it's just someone wanting to wear a slightly longer piece of fabric.

You'd cover the tattoo you wouldn't display it. You'd wear the trousers to conform to what was expected - not wear the dress. Because it'd be inappropriate

Again, pretty sure in this country, day and age you'd not find a HR department willing to try and start disciplinary proceedings on a male professional in a dress provided it was a suitably professional dress, but anyway, we're not talking about professional people and we're not discussing whether men should wear dresses at all times. The topic question is, should a little boy be allowed to wear a dress? And there's nothing inappropriate about that.

Sorry that was to @ncbby

Right. Even more reason that you should exercise your right to be a parent and say no to a child making decisions that they have no understanding of the implications of in the example of the dress. You're right - they're a child and we do have authority over their unwise decisions in this example of dress wearing for boys.

I'd also add that if they're old enough to be getting tattoos then they're not a child and you've no longer got the authority to say no to them.

I think you are making a bit of a false assumption that the message would be that if a boy wears a dress he is not a boy.

In my experience, kids are very black and white about this sort of stuff. I've had a little girl tell me that she's actually a boy because she likes x and mum says that's for boys, for example. We need to step away from this arbitrary pink/blue, unicorns/dinosaurs, dresses/dear-God-no-you-can't-wear-a-dress-because-you're-a-boy nonsense. It's harmful and ridiculous, quite frankly.

I wouldn't choose a facial piercing or visible tattoo over my chosen profession.

Right, and that's more than fair enough, but there are people in the world who would choose visible tattoos over certain careers. There are also ways to cover and remove tattoos in the context of getting a skull tattoo and then deciding you want to become a physiotherapist, as the example you provided.

as long as it's not a fetish/ you don't get a kick out of it/ you're not co-opting me in to your fantasy

But it's not any of those things for little boys. I'd like to reach a point in society where we can have gender-neutral clothing (in the context of everyone being allowed to wear blue / pink "gendered" clothing irrespective of their biological sex) and then we can see where gender identity stands in that reality. I think this is corroborating the idea in kids that "only girls wear dresses" which I don't think is necessarily right or true.

Eh? You are making things up now. I personally have said nothing of the kind; quite the contrary.

I'm not only talking to you though, am I? I've paid zero attention to the individual posters on this thread, but have responded to ideas presented.

Are you unable to distinguish between the objective idea of a boy or man can wear a dress if they like and the subjective idea that for me personally I would not want a partner who wore dresses?

Nope, in fact I am making that exact point. There are a number of posters on this thread (go back a few pages, it's a point that's been made numerous times) implying that women suggesting that they'd let their son wear dresses are in some way being disingenuous if that's not a characteristic they'd value in a romantic partner. That's the point I've been arguing- that you don't need to personally find men in dresses appealing to support your son's right to wear one.

In a final section of my tangent, I think it's very odd that FWR is usually a place for people to say; "You don't have to be transgender, you can just enjoy being a male in a dress"

Well apart from the fact that the reality of that statement, if it's males over the age of puberty, is that it is heavily qualified by "as long as it's not a fetish/ you don't get a kick out of it/ you're not co-opting me in to your fantasy" etc, etc.

It's quite possible I would imagine to not entertain the idea that what you happen to wear, or want to wear, makes you a boy or a girl, while also saying that some clothing might be only socially appropriate for males or females.

Many of families that seem to most accepting of cross-gendered clothing for kids also seem to buy into gender ideology, too.

But the creep element is pretty key I think if you want to understand why many women would be uncomfortable with the man in the dress. They are concerned that he is not a man in a dress, but a man dressing up as a woman. And you can substitute the dress for any cultural element you like that is associated with one sex.

I actually work in an environment where we're forbidden from wearing facial piercings visible tattoos and have to keep our hair of a natural hue/colour to avoid looking unprofessional. So societal rules do still exist. Like it or not.

And if it were important to you to dye your hair or have visible piercings you'd probably choose a different job. The choice is still there. But regardless, would you really suggest we hold our small children to the same standards of professionalism as adults. 'No, you can't dress like a dinosaur- do you think you'd get away with that if you worked at Barclays??'

(I also reckon that these days, a man could probably get away with wearing a dress to work somewhere professional, provided it was a suitably professional looking dress, but that's beside the point).

I don't see why people are clinging to this arbitrary idea that men can't wear dresses, with the only apparent justification being that they personally wouldn't fancy a man that does

Eh? You are making things up now. I personally have said nothing of the kind; quite the contrary.

Are you unable to distinguish between the objective idea of a boy or man can wear a dress if they like and the subjective idea that for me personally I would not want a partner who wore dresses?

* I think your comparison Is bizarre. You're saying 'a child and adult should be able to wear the same then?' as a comparison. But how is that the same as male /female*

@Savourysenorita

I’m struggling to understand the comparison they are making too

I think what we’re saying is completely logical!

I think your comparison Is bizarre. You're saying 'a child and adult should be able to wear the same then?' as a comparison. But how is that the same as male /female??

I'm saying that it's weird to suggest that one's son should only do things that one would find attractive in a partner. I know grown men with blue hair, I know grown men who play Warhammer every weekend. I do not find it attractive. But that doesn't mean I'd try to stop my son from doing it.

I also think it's a very dangerous message to give out to our poor children that you can do whatever you want so long as you're comfortable. You're setting them up for a lifetime of disappointment and mental health problems. No wonder mental health referrals for the young have soared. In the real world you can't just do what you want. Else we'd all lay in until 10 because we don't 'feel comfortable' getting out of bed at 5:30am on a cold and windy December morning. Or we'd all wear our dressing gowns into work because we're 'liberating ourselves'. I actually work in an environment where we're forbidden from wearing facial piercings visible tattoos and have to keep our hair of a natural hue/colour to avoid looking unprofessional. So societal rules do still exist. Like it or not.