Would you ok your son wearing a dress?

I’m also not really talking about disposability. I am talking about consumerism - where people think that what they buy reflects who they are.

What does that have to do with empathy?

I guess for me it's about empathy. My mother hated having no choice over what she wore- it made her feel very self-conscious as a child because she didn't feel her clothes suited her and didn't like how she looked in them. Consequently, she always let us have a say. We didn't always get our own way and we weren't wealthy, so there were no named brands or anything like that (a fair bit of it came from charity shops) but we would at least be heard and listened to, even if we didn't always get our way. I think there's value in allowing children that.

The reasons not to let them choose? None that I feel massively strongly about, but it encourages them to think clothing is more important than it is and to make superficial judgements about themselves and other people based on what they are wearing. It puts pressure on poor kids whose parents can’t afford to buy them what the other kids are asking to wear.

The other issue would be that they are kids and might make inappropriate clothing choices, so it becomes an unnecessary negotiation.

Even the attitude that they are not dolls sets up the idea that the primary purpose of clothing is decorative rather than practical.

It’s not an important area of life to have an opinion about. It falls into that parenting style where it is all about the child’s identity and individuality and doesn’t encourage the child to respect their parents’ guidance and authority.

I am probably going off at a tangent here but I don’t recall my kids making clothing requests and I certainly didn’t set clothing up as a choice. I just told them what they were wearing until they were about ten. It was the same for me growing up.

Dressing up clothes is a bit different and my brother wore a nurse’s dress and it was no big deal.

It feels very consumeristic that kids have to be given the choice of clothes and that their choices mean something meaningful about their personality. The whole thing just feeds into this identity lark where utter trivia is put on the same level as actual women’s rights issues.

@ReeseWitherfork I appreciate your balanced reply and respect your opinion ps I don't agree with how your mother reacted to your brother being gay. I hope he's living a peaceful and happy life as a proud gay man.

But what is not appropriate is to use children to score political or ideological points

But no one is advocating doing that. No one on here has said we should encourage boys into dresses in order to be woke. I have a 2 month old DS and won't be putting him in dresses. If I could choose, I'd probably prefer him not to want to wear dresses, because yes, it might not be an easy road (though I'd actually be more concerned about the potential response of adults than that of his peers- my DF is a bit of a sexist bullying twat about these things, and DS is his only grandson). However, it's entirely possible that he'll see his older sister in pretty dresses, think it looks fun and want to have a go himself, and I certainly won't be telling him he can't because he's got a penis. I don't believe in limiting people because of their genitals. I'm quite surprised, in this day and age, at the amount of people who apparently do.

If my son said "mummy I want to wear an Elsa dress to the cinema to see Frozen 3" then I wouldn't shout "don't be a wally!" but if you would to your son then I respect that. I don't like it, and I don't get it, but he's your son not mine. And I also really appreciate that you've said endlessly that you'd tell your son not to say mean things to my son in that scenario. You're teaching acceptance of others. I just feel sad that if it was something your son wanted to explore then you would shut down the conversation and wouldn't be accepting yourself. Perhaps your views are swayed by your super woke friend you've talked about (who also makes me sad to read about).

Just over 100 years ago it it wasn’t culturally appropriate for women to vote or be doctors or lawyers.

Thank goodness some women were prepared to do things that weren’t culturally appropriate, even if people talked about them behind their backs.

But what is not appropriate is to use children to score political or ideological points

All this crazy gender neutral shit or pushing feminine clothes on little dudes makes me so thankful I grew up in the 90s when ya mum could just bark 'don't be a wally!'

The point is, a younger child wouldn’t know the potential negative consequences, therefore the parent has to make that call.

It’s great that you feel very confident to say your school kids wouldn’t bully others etc but that doesn’t represent all schools. If only it were that simple....

But if it's not all schools surely then it's a problem with a specific school and needs to be sorted out? Rather than forcing more conformity...

As I say, it’s all very well now saying you’d be fine with it and that you’d teach him be an wear what he wants etc etc but when the time comes, you may not feel the same way.

You bring a teachers makes no difference as your not emotionally invested in anywhere near the same way, you are with your own children.

It’s great that you feel very confident to say your school kids wouldn’t bully others etc but that doesn’t represent all schools. If only it were that simple....

😂

Thank you for that! Proper made me laugh that did.

My first, and she's a girl. But I do teach and am very confident that no boy in a dress in my school would be ostracized for it, but then we engender an atmosphere of tolerance and respect, very successfully. Saying that, I'm also certain that no boy in a dress would've been picked on in my secondary school- everyone was very right on and liberal, despite it being a special measures school. I don't believe that a boy in a dress would necessarily be mercilessly bullied (and if they were, that would represent a problem with the school- you'll not catch me telling a child to change the way they look or act to appease bullies).

My son used to go to school in his Frozen dress from time to time when he was younger (it was on his Christmas list one year and Father Christmas duly delivered) - and he and his pal used to play 'princesses' at our house - (mine had two older sisters, the pal was oldest of two boys) which usually meant getting dressed up and then playing football - because that's what princesses do.

Ultimately, to say to a child that they can't wear a certain garment because of their sex is regressive and prejudiced. Dresses and skirts are lovely and comfortable to wear, particularly when it's hot, and I don't think we should deny half of the population the chance to experience that for no real reason at all. I do also think attitudes will shift over time- I remember my DF opining that earrings on men were for '(offensive term for gay men) and pirates' when I was little, yet they're really mainstream now.

Just over 100 years ago it it wasn’t culturally appropriate for women to vote or be doctors or lawyers.

Thank goodness some women were prepared to do things that weren’t culturally appropriate, even if people talked about them behind their backs.

Would you be happy to go on a date with a man in a dinosaur costume

I would have proposed marriage in that very moment if he had turned up on a dinosaur costume.

** sorry the "I think that's an interesting point" thing I wrote was in reference to the previous thing I wrote. (Though that sounds very self-congratulatory when I put it like that, whoops!)

It's fun watching the tourists bundled up in ski-wear when it's T shirt weather isn't it?

And yes, you should see the difference between my Australian mother and I when it comes to clothing choices in Scotland

I actually think that's an interesting point, even though it's a very weird one. Dr Frankenfurter, though he was a mad scientist, was always very much a man even though he dressed up in lingerie and makeup and dresses. To me anyway, he always had quite strong "manly man" energy even though he wore "womanly" clothing. Though of course I'm not advocating for anyone to walk around in suspenders and a corset in public, I think it would be healthy if we could get to a point where clothing choices didn't affect gender identity or perception of character.

Sorry not sure if that made any sense!

Yes, the hottest I remember it being is about 25C and I remember thinking that was disgustingly sweltering grin Still, means I can forsake bulky jackets in winter as I'm acclimatised to the North Pole!

It's fun watching the tourists bundled up in ski-wear when it's T shirt weather isn't it?.

Right, back on topic - Kilts may be 'men's wear' but try wearing one in England if you're not playing a set of pipes or doing something else quintessentially Scottish. The average Englishman can't tell the difference between a kilt and a skirt - and will let you know (usually behind your back).

I hear that, which is why I'll usually do this instead of @ depending on the context. If people are bothered by that then they'd have to explain the issue themselves as I don't necessarily understand that.

Thank you for saying that though, and acknowledging what I've said. It's easy to get into defensive mode especially online (I'm very guilty of it) but I appreciate you taking my point.

And yes, maybe it's partially to do with me being bisexual or maybe it's just because I'm not especially fussed with what people wear ( or I watch too much Rocky Horror ) but I'd be more than happy with him wearing a dress if he wanted to. I'm not especially attached to the idea of "manly men" necessarily. Though I might take some interest into making sure he got his colour palette and dress shape right!

Ok Sorry, point taken

But just to let you know whilst I don't mind being tagged some of the regulars on FWR really don't like being tagged and will tell you so if you do it.

You're more broadminded than me. I'm afraid I'd throw a wobbly if my husband wanted to wear a dress !