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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Sarah Ditum discusses student sex work with Jane Garvey on Woman's Hour

63 replies

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 11/12/2020 14:53

Sarah Ditum was excellent speaking to Jane Garvey about Leicester Uni's Student Sex Worker Policy Toolkit earlier. The academic before her not so much: "Students have always looked for part time work" pretty low on analysis of the differences between say working in a shop and prostitution. Sarah's section, in which she states it's the wrong approach for a university to take, starts at around 39 minutes in:

"The university should be giving the message that these are dangerous things for young women to get involved with"

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000q3gx

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Gurufloof · 15/12/2020 08:49

What is Kaya Corbridge going to do when she gets older, no longer gets the money shes on now? Cant see flipping burgers as a good alternative to prostitution money wise. But no way will she get a decent job anywhere else. Remember that employers Google (or should) potential employees.

Gurufloof · 15/12/2020 08:46

Government needs to really really look at the consequences of austerity and the social changes from the internet like the ubiquity of porn, very carefully
On the porn aspect, the UK government could ban porn overnight but we have to take on the rest of the worlds governments to ban it. The internet being a easy port to any countries web sites.
On the austerity I too agree, but that's not the only reason driving prostitution. I dont know how many of the trafficked women even show as claiming benefits etc.

The downside of all this is that eventually women will no longer go to university, then again women will miss out on lifelong advantages. Or other women will rise up and create women only universities. And other places that women need.

InterfectoremVulpes · 15/12/2020 08:32

Kaya Corbridge, from Colne, Lancashire, earns £30,420 a month selling snaps on Onlyfand. 30K A MONTH

Sounds like an MLM sales pitch, but for sex work instead of wax melts.

For every Kaya earning thus amount of money only selling photos, how many desperate, drug addicted and abused women do you think there are being forced into a £10 a go blow job in a grimy back alley to line a pimps pockets?

Its so easy to quote the tiny number of women claiming yo be making thousands for "only" flashing their tits and minge on a camera, whilst closing your eyes to the actual realities of the vast numbers of sex workers face.

Grellbunt · 14/12/2020 17:45

Comes down to values.

Not everything is about money.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 14/12/2020 17:31

This is a sex work toolkit we're talking about, it includes prostitution. Plus have a little read of this and see if you think onlyfans comes without a dark side:

www.refinery29.com/en-gb/bbc-onlyfans-nudes4sale-young-women

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LiteratureMichigan · 14/12/2020 17:26

Kaya Corbridge, from Colne, Lancashire, earns £30,420 a month selling snaps on Onlyfand. 30K A MONTH. No meeting in person.

A 28 yr old Medical student by the name of SweetArches makes 58K PER YEAR selling photos of.....her feet!

That's not so seedy and dangerous. She's not being exposed to the dark world of gangs and crack cocaine. She's posting bloody toe photos.

LiteratureMichigan · 14/12/2020 17:19

What if she doesn't meet punters. What if she has a private OnlyFans account? The amount of money some of these women are making from an online - no contact in person - private account is insane. A lot of them don't even post nudes but sexually suggestive photographs. I'm talking thousands a week for bikini pics. Or a cleavage pic on snapchat for a couple hundred.

FannyCann · 14/12/2020 17:10

NVQ I'd have thought?

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 14/12/2020 17:02

If it was merely ‘work’ there’s be a City & Guilds cert you could do in it surely?

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 14/12/2020 17:01

As I said before I think non-judgemental support for women who face poverty or prostitution is vital. A university giving it tacit approval as an opportunity to supplement their income as the academic behind the toolkit does, is different:

"The point is really that sex work is generally legal, it's a legal activity between two consenting adults and universities are not there to give moral judgment in relation to what people do."

As if it's just another job, when it's a job that increases the risk safety of the individual on all sorts of levels. Prostitution is much more likely to bring a young woman into contact with violent punters, criminal gangs, drugs, sexually transmitted diseases and psychological distress than your average barista job. This isn't a game.

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ThatIsNotMyUsername · 14/12/2020 17:00

So how will they react when a young woman is raped, beaten or murdered as a result of being told ‘Hey it’s just a job, we think it’s a good idea!’?

CherieMarch · 14/12/2020 16:48

Minimising the dangers is absolutely concerning. I think a lot of young women buy into this idea because they need the cash so badly that it's either do it and feel disgusted or do it and pretend to feel empowered as a coping strategy until enough money is accrued and then go back to working a job that's safe and somewhat enjoyable. 😒

ChattyLion · 14/12/2020 16:12

I’m also concerned that they’re presenting a hierarchy as if there are consequence-free forms of sex work. I used to know a woman who did phone lines work when she was hard up and she was still really emotionally fucked up by what she heard years later.

That was long before camera phones and cheap video recording equipment and the internet remembering everything. It’s dangerous in all its forms. Minimising that danger is lying and abusive.

It’s also not like there’s great non-stigmatised support available out there to help women emotionally and physically hurt, attacked or killed as part of doing this ‘job’..seeing as it’s just a job and known to be dangerous, we should be publishing all those stats and women’s stories and we should be able to fund that support really well. And women should be able to speak freely what has happened to them.. yet somehow.. Hmm

Government needs to really really look at the consequences of austerity and the social changes from the internet like the ubiquity of porn, very carefully.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 14/12/2020 15:51

Your kid goes off to uni a schoolgirl, ready to conquer the world, and comes back a hooker?

Yes, fabulous...

ChattyLion · 14/12/2020 15:47

This is so depressing. University is meant to be a way of providing and encouraging more future options for young women, not fewer and much more dangerous options. Why are universities fucking over young women like this?

It’s not work, it’s not taxed, pensioned, insured, sick paid, maternity leaves, whatever else. It’s just abuse. Are we so out of control with the cost of living and state support this is the best we can offer young women? Really?

CherieMarch · 14/12/2020 15:26

Since stats show us that "sex work" is on the rise among women attending universities I think that universities have a responsibility to inform them of the dangers of it should they decide to bring it up.

www.independent.co.uk/news/education/education-news/sex-work-students-university-sugar-dating-debt-living-costs-a9166311.html

However, I do think economics is a huge, huge driving force and a root cause.

The students in the article above turned to sex work, why? Because they were worried about money. The kind that working part time at Savers won't solve and with student debt and job losses on the rise that's not going to change overnight.

youth-time.eu/students-prostitution-on-rise/
www.independent.co.uk/voices/austerity-sex-survival-universal-credit-poverty-prostitution-un-report-a8925256.html

www.google.com/amp/s/news.sky.com/story/amp/coronavirus-more-students-are-turning-to-sex-work-during-covid-19-pandemic-12066700?espv=1

Should sex work (which includes faceless nudes, phone sex, feet videos, sex videos, being sugar babies and traditional prostitution) be encouraged, normalised or sugar coated by universities? Of course not. Should it be ignored or demonized...I don't think that's going to solve it either. There are pros and cons to say working at Odeon vs selling nudes online and that's just part of the new topsy turvy reality that we live in.

It's interesting that issues that have historically faced the lower classes are seeping into universities and the middle class.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 13/12/2020 22:32

That's an argument for economic measures to support women and students from poorer backgrounds. Its also an argument to break down barriers to employment for young people and job creation schemes. It's not an argument for the promotion of prostitution by a University. The University should provide empathetic and non judgemental support services for students who find themselves having to turn to prostitution in desperation, but the assertion that this is a legal job just like any other is dangerous.

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LiteratureMichigan · 13/12/2020 22:20

Many uni students can go home. What about women who can't? Poverty hurts women and pushes us to contemplate putting ourselves in situations we have to pretend feel normal and empowering .

LiteratureMichigan · 13/12/2020 22:17

Poverty is going to increase in the UK what with covid job losses and god knows what covid+Brexit will = but it can't be good. More and more women will be tempted into doing sex work that they really don't want to do but feel there is no option. It's heartbreaking and I don't blame them. I for one have worked full time for a year straight and still not managed to get out of my overdraft, used sheets as curtains and had to buy junk food because it lasted longer. I felt suicidal and although I didn't start an only fans I seriously considered it.

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 13/12/2020 22:03

"Join this Culture Shift webinar with University of Leicester to launch their new Student Sex Worker Policy and Toolkit - 15 December" www.eventbrite.co.uk/e/launching-university-of-leicesters-student-sex-worker-policy-and-toolkit-tickets-131610353109

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AllCatsAreBeautiful · 13/12/2020 19:08

@KiposWonderbeasts

When my lovely young uni student corrected me from saying Prostitution to “it’s sex work, Mum” I said no, it wasn’t “work” of an sort it was exploitation, the commodification of women and something to help women escape from, not engage it.

If it’s work like any other, where are the people trafficked into being baristas or supermarket staff?

People are trafficked into lots of forms work, though? Farm work, fishing, nail bars, teachers (www.oxfordamerican.org/magazine/item/1963-trafficking-in-teachers), car-washes ...
KiposWonderbeasts · 13/12/2020 18:23

When my lovely young uni student corrected me from saying Prostitution to “it’s sex work, Mum” I said no, it wasn’t “work” of an sort it was exploitation, the commodification of women and something to help women escape from, not engage it.

If it’s work like any other, where are the people trafficked into being baristas or supermarket staff?

HollowTalk · 13/12/2020 18:17

@HecatesCatsInXmasHats

According to the female academic involved there are male and trans student prostitutes, but when questioned by Jane Garvey she admitted that their numbers are extremely small compared to females.
And I was shouting at the radio that the people using those trans and male prostitutes were men, not women.
EdgeOfACoin · 13/12/2020 18:11

If a student got a job as a burger flipper and she happened to serve her supervisor a burger one Saturday afternoon, noone would bat an eyelid.

What would the university's take be if a student's supervisor happened to be her punter? After all, it's just work, innit?

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 13/12/2020 16:57

They aren’t going to put it on their cv are they? So it’s not ‘ok’ and they know it.

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