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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

NHS trans guidance- URGENT request for help!

56 replies

Watermonster · 08/12/2020 14:19

Several of us have spent over a year trying to get local NHS policy to consider the needs of women, not just males who identify as women, in setting policy about wards, recommending puberty blockers and breast binding to teenage girls etc.
As a result the local NHS CCG reluctantly carried out an Equality Impact assessment, which shows the trans guidance directly harms women and girls. Even the doctors wrote in to complain. The board want to pass it anyway, but have opened a public survey for feedback by 15th December.
PLEASE help us by responding - 1000s of women will be negatively affected by this .Here's the info you need-

copy of the Equality impact assessment to read

bnssgccg-media.ams3.cdn.digitaloceanspaces.com/attachments/govbody_1Dec20_item6.1.pdf

and the survey for comments

bnssgccg.nhs.uk/get-involved/surveys-and-consultations/engagement-equality-impact-assessment-supporting-trans-people-best-practice-guidance/

OP posts:
gardenbird48 · 09/12/2020 12:53

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines

Still that fucking case-by-case basis being at the level of the individual, rather than the service.

Despite EHRC guidance being amended to make it clear that it's the situation that's the case (ie. single sex wards), not the person (ie. this male can be on the female ward, but this one can't)

It is absolutely shocking negligence Treestumps - it written in the law and is there for all to see in black and white!! I sent them a helpful link... Hmm
gardenbird48 · 09/12/2020 12:50

I have completed the survey and also emailed to the Bristol address given at the very bottom of the Toolkit.

Main points for me:

The mitigation for the impact on women with the protected characteristic of Religious Beliefs directs people to the 'Delivering Same-Sex Accommodation Guide' which specifies that anyone, whether part time trans or full time can choose to be accommodated onto a female ward. Not sure on which planet they think that mitigates the risk!!

Same for the impact on women (pc Sex) that may have suffered trauma and therefore cannot possibly be on a ward with a man - the recommended mitigation is to refer them to the Guide that says that any male can identify onto the ward. Not remotely acceptable.

There is also the point that you don't need to have suffered rape or trauma (and disclose that) to be given the right to a single sex ward. We have that right in law already.

They have used a disingenous interpretation of the EA 2010, emphasising that access will be considered on a case by case basis, implying at an individual level. The link below shows the actual law that states that case by case refers to a type of service or space ie. all rape shelters etc and specifically mentions same sex hospital wards as an example. How any numpty has misunderstood that I don't know - the more I got into this the crosser I got at how useless this EIA is and this is an improvement on the last version!!

It is also grossly unacceptable to push this potentially very difficult negotiation onto the frontline nursing staff to sort out - you've got a male-bodied person who wants to be placed on the female ward and you've got a load of women who might be unhappy but may not be well enough to advocate for themselves but you can't really talk about it because of your obligation of privacy to the transgender patient and if he makes a complaint of transphobia you might lose your job.

They also state that detransitioning rates are 'a very small percentage' - I have pointed out that seeing as the Tavistock couldn't be bothered to gather any useful data on patients and outcomes, they have no way of knowing whether it is a small percentage or not. Also the relative timescale of 5 yrs (affirmation only mainly started in 2015) is not long enough.
They also mentioned something about transwomen not being known to be a risk to women obviously not true - there are many good stats to refute that one.

Hope that is helpful if anyone is looking to complete the survey.

www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/notes/division/3/16/20/7 it is there in black and white!!

Manderleyagain · 09/12/2020 11:46

Thanks OP. Deadline mid December - not long! I will get onto it.

Gibbonsgibbonsgibbons · 09/12/2020 10:40

I did the same ScoldsBridle

ScoldsBridle · 09/12/2020 10:15

So I’ve just put some comments in the feedback section (survey monkey form) - is that right? Didn’t have to put my name or Email address so am wondering if I’ve responded in the right bit?!

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 09/12/2020 09:24

Still that fucking case-by-case basis being at the level of the individual, rather than the service.

Despite EHRC guidance being amended to make it clear that it's the situation that's the case (ie. single sex wards), not the person (ie. this male can be on the female ward, but this one can't)

Motherhubbardinthecellar · 09/12/2020 08:49

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

LizzieSiddal · 09/12/2020 08:05

Ffs.

Why do women have to do all this work to fight against people wanting to break the law?! Is there any other area where this is happening?

If they do bring it in we will have to do yet more work and take legal action, which we would win.

VulvaPerson · 09/12/2020 02:26

As a result the local NHS CCG reluctantly carried out an Equality Impact assessment, which shows the trans guidance directly harms women and girls.

The amount of shock I have reading this is insane. I would never have predicted selfID nonsense would negatively impact women and girls..great that someone has finally realised this!

Watermonster · 08/12/2020 17:17

Yes if you identify as trans you can choose between same sex or opposite wards. But if you are a woman you can't, unless you identify as a man.
Yes the writer believes TWAW and could not comprehend some women have different beliefs or believe in science. The doctors' letter also picked up on this.

OP posts:
CuriousaboutSamphire · 08/12/2020 17:13

But by that logic TMAM - are they being given the right to opt in to men's wards? Probably! And if they do and men accept that...? Not my circus!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 08/12/2020 17:13

They all have their fingers in their ears, eyes closed, Lucretia

TWAW TWAW...

That has been the point of all of this utter flummery and aggression, isn't it?

Sadly for them there seems to be something of a coming to senses...

LucretiaBourgeois · 08/12/2020 17:12

@CuriousaboutSamphire

TWAW - obvs!!!
But by that logic TMAM - are they beuing given the right to opt in to men's wards?
LucretiaBourgeois · 08/12/2020 17:10

How do they justify it?

To be clear, in law direct sex discrimination can't be justified (as opposed to indirect discrimination, which potentially can). I just meant - how is this being justified as a proposal, given that it would be against the law?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 08/12/2020 17:08

TWAW - obvs!!!

LucretiaBourgeois · 08/12/2020 17:07

6-gives males choice of same sex or mixed sex wards but does not give women the same choice

If that's right, it would clearly be unlawful direct sex discrimination. How do they justify it?

CuriousaboutSamphire · 08/12/2020 17:04

Ah ha! I have my response almst complete.. not quite Sth Glos, but decided to pretend I was still at Uni!

I used a lot from the previous thread, that you linked to! And have nigh on forced freinds to think about it properly....

Watermonster · 08/12/2020 17:00

@Angryresister
Yes, dumping it is what the letter from the doctors told them to do.

OP posts:
Angryresister · 08/12/2020 16:53

There is a cracking response to the toolkit and it looks like they have backed down in quite a few areas. However they fail to acknowledge the concern for actual women’s privacy and dignity and although they are perfectly well aware of why single sex wards are there, concern only extends to mental health facilities.. perhaps they should just ditch the whole leaflet as it is patently batshit.

Highwind · 08/12/2020 16:53

Thank you Watermonster!

HecatesCatsInXmasHats · 08/12/2020 16:52

Thank you!

CuriousaboutSamphire · 08/12/2020 16:51

Thanks... reading now!

Watermonster · 08/12/2020 16:49

14- no mention of waiting for the new NHS guidance ( the health secretary has already said NHS trans policy nationally must be reviewed)
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/03/04/nhs-review-transgender-policies/
15- link to other mumsnet thread with more info, including on other NHS trusts across the country - with contributors more knowledgeable than me!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3784009-Are-you-in-Devon-Bristol-North-Somerset-or-South-Gloucestershire-Tell-NHS-your-view-on-trans-guidelines-NOW?pg=7

OP posts:
Watermonster · 08/12/2020 16:45

9- no mention of how they will protect womens privacy and dignity
10-no mention of how they wil ensure access to care for women who can't use mixed sex wards
11- falsely states it will 'foster good relations' between those with gender reassignment and women/ other protected groups, despite clear evidence to the contrary
12- ignores evidence from medical staff of the negative impact on women and girls
13- makes no mention of de -transitioners/ gay teenage girls

OP posts:
Watermonster · 08/12/2020 16:41

1- EIA confirms the only group who will benefit will be those with gender reeassignment.
2- Nearly every other group will be negatively (or some neutrally) affected, especially women and those with religious beliefs, but the writer recommends the board pass it anyway.
3- Even doctors have written in to object about the negative impact of women and the use of unfactual ideological language in NHS policy (assigned at birth etc).

4- Following complaints, the revised version removes the requirement for women to be 're educated' if they object to mixed sex wards, as women are a protected characteristic, but does not give any protection to women as a result- still ignores womens needs in favour of those with gender reassignment

5- ignores Equality Act protection for single sex spaces inc hospital wards and recommends EHRC guidance (being challenged by Ann Sinnot) suggesting 'case by case' guidance
6-gives males choice of same sex or mixed sex wards but does not give women the same choice
7- does not require consent of women and clear plan to 'gaslight' women into mixed sex wards
8-falsely states males are no risk to females if they identify as women despite overwhelming evidence to contrary

OP posts:
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