Please help me untangle why gender is such an issue

What unites all female people if not biology? What characteristics are shared by all women and transwomen but not shared by men or transmen?

I certainly wouldn't dismiss your lack of gender identity. I can't quite imagine what that's like, but I have met agender people, and have a close friend who is agender, and I'm very happy to believe you when you tell me what it is you are experiencing (or not experiencing in this case).

Sometimes people get it if you ask them to imagine their brain transplanted into the body of the opposite sex, so would you feel like a woman inside a man's body or a man?

This again. It’s a daft argument because it doesn’t go far enough.

I’d have to imagine my brain not only being transplanted into a man’s body, but simultaneously wiped clean of decades of memories of being female. Never had a period, been pregnant, called “Miss”, had my hair in pigtails as a child. Don’t have a name. Never had sex. Can’t remember who gave birth to my children.

Would I know I was “a woman in a man’s body” then? No, I don’t think I would.

Gender identity refers to a person's own innate sense of what sex they are.

Gender dysphoria is a state of distress experienced by some people whose gender identity does not match the sex they were assigned at birth.

Thanks.

Am I right in guessing that you are not a proponent of the 100+ genders theory then and that gender identity is firmly linked to sex for you?

I ask this because we've also been told on here before by various people that gender identity is nothing to with sex and even that biological sex doesn't exist! I find it easier to discuss this when we have common definitions.

I don't mind splitting by sex in some cases at the moment, but I see trans woman as female, so that's not a problem for me.

This is boggling my mind a bit.
'you have a gender identity, you don't have the luxury of not believing in gender identity.

"Agender" means lacking a gender identity - if you don't have one, that's the word for not having one.'

Does this mean everyone must accept the concept of gender identity whether or not it rings true?

The closest analogy I can think of is the scientific study of racial superiority which angela Saini has written about.

I believe the science behind that was conducted from extreme bias.
The same applies to any science written about gender identity.
It just doesn't make sense to me as a feminist nor from my lived experience.

Gender dysphoria is a state of distress experienced by some people whose gender identity does not match the sex they were assigned at birth.

For your last 2 questions - if you are not aware of your gender identity, it probably means you are agender. There's nothing wrong with that at all. Something like a third of people are in some sense vague about their gender identity.

So it's pointless trying to divide the human species into 'feminine' and 'masculine' gender identities, then.

Splitting by sex where necessary remains useful.

Positrans - just for clarity's sake, when you talk about gender identity do you mean gender dysphoria or do you see that as something different? Just want to make sure we're not talking at cross-purposes as from what I understand, gender dysphoria is something separate from the concept of a gender identity but I know there is a lot of varying opinions.

I don't think there's any harm at all whatsoever in people having their own beliefs about their gender identity or identity status.

The problems come when they refuse to accept that, for example, for most other people, in biology and in UK law, sex is the valid and truthful experience/descriptor.

Or when woolly notions about gender identity are used to inform the framework and practice of a medical service ie GIDs where, by neglecting children's psychological development, much harm has been done.

If one can feel like the opposite sex and therefore they ‘are’ it, because of the social
construct of gender identity, despite not having that biological trait, can they also decide to be other things that they biologically aren’t, because of other social constructs? Race is the best example because there are certainly existing social norms associated with different racial identities, so theoretically it should be possible to identify with those and therefore feel that is your racial identity.
And if not, why is it different?
Something that you innately feel and believe, that is subject to changes in what you feel and believe, should not be anyone else’s business but your own.
It shouldn’t be enforced upon anyone else and I don’t understand why it should be enshrined in law and various other structures of our society.

If you don;t have a clear gender identity, there's nothing wrong with that, but not everyone is like you.

The problem has been the shift from "I know this isn't really comprehensible but it's real and it does help if people treat me as if I'm the opposite sex" to "I actually am a woman/man and you're a transphobe if you don't accept that as reality".

What we might call "old school transsexuals" don't generally demand that we discard reality - they usually seem quite open in saying who they are.

In terms of 'scientific research and facts' that support gender identity, the closest we have is when 'gender identity disorder' was a classification in the DSM, as it was up to 2013.

It was then eschewed in favour of the term 'gender dysphoria'. in the DSM5. Whatever you think of the DSM frameworks, if you're going to talk about gender and 'scientific facts' you can't really discount this behemoth of a publication.

Thinking about Kiera Bell's case last week and the shocking lack of basic science at GIDs eg basic record keeping trying to run a psychological service based on vague, out dated terms like 'gender identity' led to a safeguarding disgrace, ruining many young lives.

Gender identity is so well studied that we know it is strongly coupled to restrictive assumptions that a particular society makes about the sexes

We know that trans identity is much more common in societies with rigid sex defined roles

It's man made concept. Not a fact of nature

Ergo, the solution is to unmake it. Not to force people to comply

I have never had a feeling that I was 'one of the girls'
Me neither! Although I do have a male friend who prefers the company of women. I don't think this really explains much.

Gender identity is a well studied scientific fact.

There is very little beyond studying the differences between people who have a gender identity and those that do not and even these findings are few and far between (and often overlook sexuality as a confounding factor).

There are much more compelling and definite brain differences between Buddhist monks and everyone else than there are between gender identities. This only proves the existence of people who believe in Buddhism - and that this belief and lifestyle can change your brain - it doesn't prove the truth of religion itself.

the feeling that I was one of the girls

Hi I know there's been a lot of questions but this part jumped out to me. I have never had a feeling that I was 'one of the girls'. I don't understand what this means. Can you explain what made you feel like 'one of the girls'? What things made you think "yep, that's me"? Thanks.

How can any man claim to “feel” like a woman, or have a “female gender identity”?
Firstly, being a woman is NOT a feeling, it’s XX chromosomes and a female body, neither of which a man can ever have.
Secondly, women themselves do not have some mysterious “feeling” of being women - we do not identify as women, and we have nothing in common with each other except our physical bodies and our oppression by men. We simply ARE women by virtue of being born as one.
So in what possible way does a trans person claim a female identity, when such a thing does not exist?

[quote jadelou85]@christinarossetti19

"There isn't an 'understanding complex human behaviours' course"

• There is. It's called psychology[/quote] Psychology is the study of human behaviour, is it not, complex or otherwise?

Having been on a psychology course or having a psychology qualification doesn't automatically give anyone more insight into every variation of human behaviour. It's living and reflecting on life that does that.

Across the world and throughout history people seem to have managed very well in understanding what sex they are and what gender roles they are expected to conform to.

It's dangerous pseuco-science about 'gender identity' that has caused the muddling in many quarters, not recognising what sex you are and what your society expects from that sex.

My husband has softer skin than me....hmmph..

I'd be keen to know what being female mentally "feels" like too.

I know what it physically feels like to be a woman, it's painful once a month, my skin is softer and my voice higher than DH's and I can't lift like my brother can but I'm not sure I am mentally aligned with notions of femininity. I feel like I relate to both masculine and feminine stereotypes of behaviour depending on what I am doing at the time.

I’d like evidence of the ‘well studied’ and ‘scientific’ and ‘fact’ bits please and thank you

And I still would like to know what this all means for people WITHOUT dysphoria. This is the most puzzling part for me.

So now am wondering why if genderism is an ideological belief or a mental health condition akin to depression. I had understood that the latter is not popular with generists.

Positrans I await your links to the incontrovertible scientific evidence that will persuade me there is more to gender ideology than a belief system.