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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Urgent action for those in Scotland

382 replies

SusanSmithFWS · 05/12/2020 18:58

The amazing Johann Lamont has put in an amendment to the forensic medical services bill. This is a really important piece of legislation which seeks to make the process easier for rape victims and we support it. We are concerned, however, that although the women who testified that access to a female examiner was the most important concern, the bill still refers to the gender - instead of sex - of the examiner.

Sex, unlike gender, is defined in the Equality Act and there is provision for recruitment under schedule 9. We believe that a small change will ensure that there is no ambiguity.

We would urge anyone from Scotland to please write to all eight of their MSPs and ask them to support the motion.

As Susan Dalgety reported in the Scotsman:
Her amendment may be only six words long – “for the word ‘gender’ substitute ‘sex’” – but it gets to the heart of the current debate about who counts as a woman.

“Women should be able to choose the sex of the person who conducts the investigation,” Johann told me last night. “This is a key test for the Parliament, which is committed to rooting action in the understanding of experience. Women courageously and powerfully spoke up so that others might fare better than them.

“The amendment is tiny but would be a huge step in listening to survivors. The committee was convinced. The Parliament should be too.”

Six words can make a world of difference.

www.scotsman.com/news/opinion/columnists/transgender-debate-msps-must-stand-womens-sex-based-rights-key-vote-bill-help-rape-victims-susan-dalgety-3057640

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2magpies1pigeon · 18/12/2020 18:16

Good for him.
But such a pity that there is no room for debate or differences of opinion in the Green party.

MsF1t · 18/12/2020 16:13

Sorry, link fail.

The Guardian one seems to work. www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/18/scottish-greens-msp-resigns-claiming-intolerance-over-women-and-trans-rights

MsF1t · 18/12/2020 16:10

Andy Wightman has resigned from the Greens: www.holyrood.com/news/view,andy-wightman-resigns-from-scottish-greens

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2020 21:38

Hmm, that's less clear, stationed, as I read it. It does imply that gender reassignment equals a change of sex?

The exemptions can still be applied if there is a legitimate aim and they are a proportionate means of achieving that aim.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2020 21:35

The rights of a sex offence victim come first. What they want and what they need should come first. Their right to a choice has just been taken from them. They need to feel they have a say in what happens to their body going forward.

Absolutely.

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2020 19:30

The rights of a sex offence victim come first. What they want and what they need should come first. Their right to a choice has just been taken from them. They need to feel they have a say in what happens to their body going forward.

Any suggestion that a rape victim/survivor's preference is in some way problematic or transphobic is abhorrent.

Thanks for the links, ItsAll. I feel I may need a drink to get through them ...

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/12/2020 18:47

This was law making. Laws must be precise, the words used must be clear and precise and understood.

ScotGov has history.
murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/04/21/shifting-sands-on-the-definition-of-woman-in-scots-law-the-journey-of-the-gender-representation-on-public-boards-act-from-consultation-to-implementation/

murrayblackburnmackenzie.org/2020/11/30/international-evidence-and-the-risks-of-reframing-the-sex-question-in-the-census/

A cynical person might think they are gradually writing sex out of the laws in favour of gender deliberately...

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 15/12/2020 18:33

The thing that really worries me about all this is why the fuck would anyone, of any sex/gender/whatever want to traumatise and upset a victim of a sex offence? I do not get that mentality

This bothers me too. A lot.

The rights of a sex offence victim come first. What they want and what they need should come first. Their right to a choice has just been taken from them. They need to feel they have a say in what happens to their body going forward.

stationed · 15/12/2020 18:20

Yes, the Equality Act does seem to mix up sex and gender. It was written a long time ago (in terms of transgender arguments).

terryleather · 15/12/2020 18:14

@ArabellaScott

The thing, terryleather, about that accusation of it being a 'dogwhistle' is so fucking disingenuous.

This was law making. Laws must be precise, the words used must be clear and precise and understood.

I would like to see the SNP clarify whether this is an official statement of policy, or not.

Yes, I'd like to see that clarification too...
ArabellaScott · 15/12/2020 17:59

Hmm, that's less clear, stationed, as I read it. It does imply that gender reassignment equals a change of sex?

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2020 17:35

The thing, terryleather, about that accusation of it being a 'dogwhistle' is so fucking disingenuous.

This was law making. Laws must be precise, the words used must be clear and precise and understood.

I would like to see the SNP clarify whether this is an official statement of policy, or not.

stationed · 15/12/2020 17:07

This is in relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment:
Gender reassignment
(1)A person has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment if the person is proposing to undergo, is undergoing or has undergone a process (or part of a process) for the purpose of reassigning the person's sex by changing physiological or other attributes of sex.
(2)A reference to a transsexual person is a reference to a person who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.
(3)In relation to the protected characteristic of gender reassignment—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a transsexual person;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to transsexual persons.

stationed · 15/12/2020 17:07

This is the definition of the "sex" protected characteristic in the Equality Act 2010:
11Sex
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex—
(a)a reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or to a woman;
(b)a reference to persons who share a protected characteristic is a reference to persons of the same sex.

WouldBeGood · 15/12/2020 17:07

The thing that really worries me about all this is why the fuck would anyone, of any sex/gender/whatever want to traumatise and upset a victim of a sex offence? I do not get that mentality

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2020 17:00

@stationed

They're saying that "sex" and "gender" mean the same thing. And will presumably say that the Bill means that women, when requesting an examiner of the female sex, can rightfully be given a transwoman?
Yes, that is what the Labour MSP said (I forget her name, Michelle something, I think).

As far as I understand it, she's wrong, as the Equality Act makes provision for exemptions by sex in specific circumstances, I believe citing exactly this type of situation. That applies regardless of GRC.

But I suppose the EA is considered transphobic, now.

terryleather · 15/12/2020 14:53

I read that statement last night Arabella and it just encompasses everything that is wrong with critical social justice and genderist bullshit.

It makes it clear to me that the most important things are
a) engaging in activism (seemingly for it's own sake), signalling to others that this is your tribe, and lecturing the heathens (liberal narcissism as I keep saying...) and b) centering those employed by this service and their feelings, rather than the actual needs and wants of service users...it's almost as if they don't matter in all this.

"fairness, equality and social justice" they wouldn't know what that was if it came up and shook their hand...

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2020 14:50

Also it is not the case that a GRC (which few trans people have) means you are for all purposes the opposite sex. There are clearly stated exemptions to both the GRA and the EA. These "women activists" are either deliberately misleading or misinformed.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2020 14:47

"Gender" does not have the same legal meaning as sex. In the case of the Equality Act it is only relevant to the protected characteristic of Gender Reassignment. Not sure what other Scottish legislation includes "gender" other than the GRA.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 15/12/2020 14:45

That deleted tweets website is fascinating

stationed · 15/12/2020 14:30

They're saying that "sex" and "gender" mean the same thing. And will presumably say that the Bill means that women, when requesting an examiner of the female sex, can rightfully be given a transwoman?

ArabellaScott · 15/12/2020 14:12

Many thanks!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/12/2020 13:16

Oh FFS - sorry Blush

What is that app that shows deleted MPs tweets?

www.politwoops.co.uk/

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 15/12/2020 13:15

What is that app that shows deleted MPs tweets?

What is that app that shows deleted MPs tweets?

SheldonesqueIsUnwell · 15/12/2020 12:37

We activists believe in the value of fairness, equality and social justice

Yes. You might. But your belief in fairness, equality and social justice doesn’t extend to women does it?

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