Unbelievable projection from Jane Fae on puberty blockers

Sorry, not Ricky’s kid, been a while since I watched the early episodes.

Sorry if people have already pointed that out.

However they felt then they were playing a girl, so what is the picture supposed to prove?

Be careful quoting me - I’ve been on the Mumsnet naughty step of late

Sorry - didn't mean to quote because I changed my mind about what I was going to say. Had an absolute shudder of fear go through me then that I'd posted wrong think.

I'm going to have to do something else for a bit - that I had a visceral reaction to posting what I actually think on a feminism board because I was frightened it would get me banned is fucked up.

Anyway - just related to the E Page thing - this article about Jaah, R Kelly's daughter, is really interesting:

thevelvetchronicle.com/r-kellys-child-jaah-went-public-as-trans-now-18-explains-she-was-a-lesbian/

tl;dr - she thought she was trans when she was 14 - at 18, she realised she wasn't, she was a lesbian.

PP has it backwards; the identity does not precede the dysphoria. The dysphoria - the hatred of the body, the hatred of being the thing the stereotypes attach to - comes first. The cross-sex identity develops as a coping mechanism in some (but not all) cases of dysphoria. Then the patient learns about the "born trans" narrative and retcons their life.. Totally agree, this is exact what the person I know has described - they had help to get over their ‘inner transphobia’ and that was the realisation that they were trans. Prior to that they were an out and proud lesbian.

I was thinking recently that from many descriptions it seems that some special trans glasses are issued and the person uses them as a prism to review their entire life and explain and anchor feelings of unhappiness to that specific issue.

A bit like that movie with the little people in the girls head - when Sadness accidentally touched some memories they all retrospectively changed to sad memories (Inside Out?)

The paediatric transition they say they wish they had is surely just based on fantasy?

And a very male-gazey fantasy at that.

They wish they'd passed as teenage girls because they have no real conception of what being young and in possession of breasts entails.

Who was it who said they found catcalling validating?

I don’t think many of the late transitioning MtFs would actually have willingly given up their sexual and reproductive function before they were even developed enough to experience orgasm.
The paediatric transition they say they wish they had is surely just based on fantasy?

Don't get me wrong, I think retconning's just part of being human - we thrive on narrative after all - but if we're unaware we do it then it tends to lead us astray.

where groups have been dragged in under the trans umbrella who probably don’t belong there, the ‘accepted’ ideology has been driven by the narrow experience and self-interest of the mostly middle class and middle aged MtF late transitioners who dominate the movement

This is such a good point - it highlights the problem of lumping all trans people into the same group. As we’ve discussed before, the experience, motivations and best treatment (if any is necessary) will be vastly different between the young ftm people, different sources of distress with their bodies, no children yet planned, who seem to require hormone treats and surgery, the older mtf who have lived a life, in many cases had a family and in many cases seem to have fewer issues with their body and then you’ve got the drag queens (needing no ‘treatment’ for anything presumably as it is a performance) and the non binary people who, if they are female seem to require hormone treatment and surgery and if male, pop on some eyeliner and use the ladies toilets.
The loudest voices are the mtf apparently telling the ftm to do what they wish they could have done. But do they really wish that? Or is it more to do with ‘If only I could pass better my life would be perfect?

So are these people wishing that their children didn’t exist and saying that the married lives they led should never have happened? Because that is what they are advocating for the ftm people - it is like their sliding doors moment.

Such disparate groups with disparate needs bring viewed by the decision makers as one big group with special needs that must never be questioned.

I suppose we all retcon in a way (ie, find later life talent for painting, suddenly remember how we were always the best at art at Sunday school) but it’s almost alarming the way it manifests in a trans person’s narrative.

It strikes me that one of the big problems with diagnosing gender dysphoria is that, as the DSM list shows, we still don’t understand it.

We understand a lot more than we're allowed to acknowledge.

PP has it backwards; the identity does not precede the dysphoria. The dysphoria - the hatred of the body, the hatred of being the thing the stereotypes attach to - comes first. The cross-sex identity develops as a coping mechanism in some (but not all) cases of dysphoria. Then the patient learns about the "born trans" narrative and retcons their life.

Source: personal experience plus two decades of research and analysing trans people's own accounts. Sometimes I think most people take the latter at face value, which is baffling.

FWIW, though I don't think there's such a thing as "true trans" (unless it means transsexual ie someone who's undergone certain cosmetic treatments), I think a distinction ought to be made between root causes: some clearly start from hating the stereotypes, while others start with body issues stemming from sexual abuse.

No one's born that way. We're made that way through lived experience.

The DSM list is fucked in many ways, not least of which being its focus on cross-sex identification rather than the disidentification with the self that precedes.

Someone on Twitter was citing a pic of E Page as a child, riding a bike in a flannel shirt with hair tied back, as proof of transgenderism. And I think they were actually serious.

This is the tweet EmpressWitchDoesntBurn and OneEpisode:

www.twitter.com/abrahams_wife/status/1333967658484633601

To misinterpret the photo in this way says a lot.

I don't have a share token but have read this. The details have been in times articles a couple of years ago.

Coming back to this point: That’s the job of the psychiatrists with a specialty in gender identity who run the clinics.

It's a shambles. From the article:

Evans began to become concerned by the influence of transgender organisations on clinical practice at the Tavistock. “It was becoming increasingly difficult to discuss the needs of the patients who displayed clinical curiosity. The beginnings of the more ‘affirmative model’ of care [whereby the cross-sex identity of a child with gender dysphoria is affirmed by referring to the child as if it were the opposite sex] were taking root”.
*
To this day, Evans believes this practice “has not been proven to alleviate mental distress”, and that its use within the GIDS is “based on political pressures and fears of litigation, rather than what would be clinically, professionally appropriate”.*

And

Between 2016 and 2019, a total of 35 clinicians left the Tavistock, many reporting concerns. One psychologist, who wished to remain anonymous, feared that “young people are being over-diagnosed and then over-medicalised”. Others felt the influence of lobby groups on clinical practice.

So basically lobby groups are literally "taking over the asylum."

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/right-blow-whistle-tavistock-clinic-puberty-blockers/?fbclid=IwAR1BJ2gXYCwJihkH2LsZKhgr-05pNnI86FUb0Mf3hwJe2VECz3NdUjcwo0A

Bodies have brains.

Brains have different skills and interests; that's what makes us human. You can see that in toddlers.

Those brains can also be taught to learn new skills and may develop new interests over a whole life time.

Society decides what interests and skills are for males or females. Walk into any children's toy or clothes store to spot that (JL doing well though.)

Some brains don't fit those (capitalist) narratives.

It is nonsense. If someone with a female body identifies as male or vice versa, what does it actually mean? Nothing if they don't fall back on cultural stereotypes of how each sex is supposed to behave.

"A gender identity incongruent with their sex."

What does that mean? Its nonsense.

We have a sexed body and a personality. That's it.

Anyone of either sex can have any combination of personality traits.

Not even Dr Johanna Olsen buys the "hormone wash" theory:

www.google.com/amp/s/www.livescience.com/amp/51652-transgender-youth-dont-have-hormonal-imbalance.html

This is crazily circular, though, Catalogue. If the psychiatrists who we are relying on to sort out the genuine from the mistaken GD sufferers are operating under policies that tell them to affirm automatically and accept without exception, is it any wonder the numbers being treated and waiting for treatment have expanded exponentially?

Can we be surprised that the JR discovered that children proceed almost without exception from the "Let's give you time to think about this" PBs to "No going back now without irreversible and life-altering impacts" CSHs?

Who is looking out for these children? This is a bigger failure of safeguarding at every step of the way than anything in a century and a half, it seems. A lot of influential people are going to be on the wrong side of history when the dust settles.

That’s the job of the psychiatrists with a specialty in gender identity who run the clinics.

They don't have time machines. You can't predict the tiny 10% who might go on to transition.

They don't seem to know how to work this out themselves. There's no concrete physical evidence to go on.

Also, transition isn't the only way to treat or deal with GD. There are many who live with it but find ways to manage it, just as many people with other types of body dysmorphia do too. (I suffer badly but have found ways to cope well)

The trans narrative fascinates people and media has found they can sell it. They're not as interested in people who want nose jobs and find trans race (rightly) horrific.

Media sets the aesthetic and stereotyped trends.

So, Catalogue, if it's a small minority of girls with genuine GD and most of theose coming forward just extras carried away by peers or SM thinking they do, perhaps Stonewall's "Acceptance without exception" mantra is not the smartest way to approach them?

No it’s not.

Any ideas how clinics can sort the genuine from the misguided?

That’s the job of the psychiatrists with a specialty in gender identity who run the clinics.

that a child having a strong dislike of their sexual anatomy or a strong desire for the physical sex characteristics of the opposite sex could be due to abuse or trauma which should be thoroughly investigated. It doesn't mean they have the brain of someone of the opposite sex.

Yes OldCrone it could be due to abuse and trauma and that should be fully investigated.

You set up a bit of a straw man when you say ‘brain of someone of the opposite sex’. I’m not describing transsexualism as that. More a set of factors including brain development that predispose an individual to develop a gender identity incongruent with their sex.

So, Catalogue, if it's a small minority of girls with genuine GD and most of theose coming forward just extras carried away by peers or SM thinking they do, perhaps Stonewall's "Acceptance without exception" mantra is not the smartest way to approach them?

Swap gender dysphoria for anorexia, Stonewall for those pro-ana sites and puberty blockers for laxatives or diet pills - amphetamines. Does "acceptance with exception" still apply and if not why not?