Nowhere is safe from preferred pronouns

For the person who asked - I never got a response to my “out-Woking” but I didn’t get nagged about the issue again. I also noticed some of the wokies quietly deleted their statement about pronouns from their email addresses.

It’s awful. I would like dh to get a job closer to home as the drive tires him - he’s in his 50s. But when I read posts like this, I wonder if the drive is worth it. His company is not woke at all. Thank goodness.

Sorry meant if I say my pronoun is "she" etc. etc.

Why pronouns plural?

If I say my pronouns are "she" doesn’t her, her and hers follow without saying?

And if I say "he" doesn’t him, his and his following without saying?

If they want to display pronouns, fine. The issue I have with it is the baggage that often comes with it - the herd-like mentality and the thought that someone not doing it is a bad person or not good in some way.

RoxyGrey

"compelled speach is exactly what it is"

Please be brave enough to stand against.

It seems like a lot more than a simple request.

A lot of offence seems to be taken by some if anyone doesn't comply. Even if they try to comply but forget ocasionally.
People (women) have been cancelled or lost their jobs for less, and Maya Forstater's case shows that this is a genuine risk.

It might be ok if I personally knew one or two people who needed their pronouns thought about before speaking, but with large numbers of colleagues I would find it impossible. Literally impossible. That makes it a trap that could cost me my job and more at any time.

It was apparently recommended by an NEU LGBTQ conference recently that people should put their pronouns on their Zoom ID as well as email signature, so this was suggested by a senior person at my school recently. Luckily he said it was optional, so I've ignored it.

I think what would be more productive is if people stopped bringing their whole selves to work and expecting others to celebrate that. I'm not interested. Just get on with the job that people are paid to do. And be productive.

That ^

Given the evidence that women are treated worse than men (less likely to be taken seriously etc) in certain industries, its no wonder some women don't want to have to publicly state their pronouns.

I wouldn't critise other people for doing so, and would always use the pronouns people requested. But I'm not going to be stating mine. And if pressed I would politely question whether if I used he/him they would start paying me more as per the sex pay gap.

Absolutely, I've noticed this too. We have a "woke team" (not the actual name, think fundraising, awareness etc) at work made up of mostly women and one man, I'm pretty sure all the women have pronouns listed in their email signatures but the guy doesn't, even though he is definitely the most preachy.

As an aside it hasn't escaped my notice that seemingly every event this team celebrates or wants to raise awareness is linked to transsexuals in some way. International woman's day= "all" women, pride (I understand why, but the focus should be on all members of the LGBTQ community) and they published a piece on black trans authors during black history month. I have come to the conclusion that they're a bit obsessed with the issue and that it won't be long before it's suggested that signatures get changed. If it happens, I think I may just forget to update mine.

The vast majority of people I see displaying their pronouns are announcing the pronouns that you would expect on the basis of their sex. They're not announcing their pronouns because their pronouns need announcing; they're announcing their pronouns because they've been on a training course that tells them that announcing pronouns is trans inclusive.

Good post Arabella.

Next time, take a deep breath, think: is this anything other than a minor inconvenience? Get on with the meeting, I can bet you'll be more productive

It's more than a minor inconvenience. And I won't be inconveniencing myself. I think what would be more productive is if people stopped bringing their whole selves to work and expecting others to celebrate that. I'm not interested. Just get on with the job that people are paid to do. And be productive.

Feel free to reject the request (unnecessary, but sure

Forced pronouns are unnecessary.

Thanks for the tips. But you'll find people are free to discuss pronoun usage, the implications and how problematic current conventions are, if we so please.

Brilliant post Arabella

The onus is on those who are seeking to change language itself to prove why this change is required
We don’t need to prove anything
You believe in it, we don’t so you justify it

Feel free to reject the request (unnecessary, but sure).

But you could argue that making a big deal of the request is much more attention seeking, turning it back onto yourself.

Someone makes a simple request: other person rejects this and goes onto MN to complain and talk about themselves and their annoyance at a basic request.

But sure, it's the original person that's attention seeking.

Next time, take a deep breath, think: is this anything other than a minor inconvenience? Get on with the meeting, I can bet you'll be more productive.

If you just accepted it I think you would find the other person wouldn't make a fuss either.

That is a bit manipulative, now isn't it?

I don't care if someone else wants to advertise their pronouns - I will make a vague effort to be agreeable but in all honesty I'm likely to either ignore their pronouns if they're not reality-based, or forget them, because realistically who could honestly remember all the various intricacies of everyone else's constructed social persona - and why should we be expected to remake the real world to suit someone's fantasies and sensitivities?

It is completely up to me to choose not to accept the nonsense idea that anyone can change sex or somehow opt out of sex altogether. The basic premise of this is both risible and dangerous. It threatens to undermine and dismantle women's rights altogether. So, no, I won't 'just accept it'. We all live in this society together, we all are entitled to discuss how it works. It's not up to one section of the populace to suddenly declare the rules of societal interaction have changed and everyone else just absolutely must 'accept it' and do as instructed.

You'll need to present a very convincing argument of why I should accept it, and how it is better to work on this fabricated version of reality than the one that most people around the world currently operate with.

I'm not at all convinced this is anything to do with making anyone 'comfortable', it's about signalling that one is in a certain group. It won't last, because it's already bowing under the weight of cognitive dissonance and it's frankly just not workable in the real world.

It's a request

Yes and the request is rejected.

Or do they not make a big deal and get on with the meeting?

Well if it's not a big deal then they don't need to try and get others to buy into it then do they.

It's like someone from a culture that requires women to cover their hair demanding that all women of any culture at their workplace cover their hair.

Why though?

Why would someone do this as a power play?

It's a request.

Does that person continually talk about it during a meeting? Or do they not make a big deal and get on with the meeting?

It has nothing to do with making people feel comfortable. It's a narcissistic power play

It's absolutely this.

Equally being asked to state your preferred pronouns is unacceptable, I wouldn't be comfortable being made to do this.

Having the freedom to do this yourself, without pressure, should be allowed and accepted.

I am very sorry that you really believe this is narcissism and attention seeking.

It really isn't. Maybe try discussing with people in your work meetings why they feel the need to do this, they could explain it a lot better than I can.

It isn't a power play, it's about that person feeling secure and safe. They want to get on with their job and work discussions without fear.

Honestly, getting worked up and annoyed about it isn't what they want. Please don't be upset by a simple request.