Nowhere is safe from preferred pronouns

I think a lot of posters here (like me) simply don’t believe in gender ideology and therefore we won’t use its language.

I also don’t believe in horoscopes but I’m not anti-Taureans

Brilliant post @arabellascott

I don't understand how this affects you. That person's choice is theirs and theirs alone. You do what you want, they'll do what they want. It's a total non-issue and it's this kind of pointless thread which does make the FWR boards appear anti-trans and not much else

If this were true there wouldn't be a problem. But it's not true is it. If people just quietly got on and did their own thing it would never had got to this. But gender ideology doesn't work like that. It requires unwilling participants to be forced to be a part of it.

Why are people always dismissive of people who refuse to buy into this bullshit?

Yes, a work Zoom conference is banal and doesn’t really affect anyone. But to comply and to not protest is to normalise it, and to normalise it is to also normalise the description of violent males as “she/her” in news reports, it blinds people to the fact the person wanting into a women’s prison is actually a violent male, and it disguised the fact it’s actually a male who is beating teenage girls in sprinting competitions. I won’t be complicit in that, and it starts with banal examples like this.

I also won’t have my speech compelled by anyone for anything and again, if you let the banal examples go, then your open to punishment if you try and describe prisons, sports, refuges, crime accurately. If you allow yourself to be compelled about small things, then big things follow. I will no sooner lie to myself or anyone else about someone’s biological sex anymore than I will describe Trump as the greatest President ever like he wants us to.

So yes it affects me. It affects everyone.

A warm welcome to all the new posters. I appreciate you coming on this board to tell us this is a complete non-issue that doesn't affect us.

Yes @ErrolTheDragon, makes sense.

I find this all very interesting.

It affects everyone by the acceptance of this so it’s not as simple as saying, oh, just leave them to it. That’s how this stuff escalates.

I'm not sure I've read the reason for declared pronouns in this thread. As I understand it, it was originally for non-passing trans people. So if you have a transwoman who looks like a bloke it's to remind people that they are to be perceived as a woman. However, if declared pronouns are only used by trans people then they simply work as a flag saying "trans". To avoid making the trans person stand out, if everyone declares pronouns then declared pronouns don't work as a flag saying "trans". Similarly with non-binary, if someone's "they" pronouns weren't declared people would perceive them as a non-feminine appearing young woman or some such.

As other people have said, the real problem is we're in a mad world where we're supposed to believe that people can change sex, and not going along with this can involve being sanctioned at work or in society. Overall I'd say getting someone's acquired pronouns wrong isn't as bad as people having their working life damaged because they've been maliciously labelled as a "bigot".

I don't understand how this affects you. That person's choice is theirs and theirs alone. You do what you want, they'll do what they want. It's a total non-issue and it's this kind of pointless thread which does make the FWR boards appear anti-trans and not much else.

[quote WouldBeGood]@babbaloushka I naively thought neopronouns was a joke...[/quote]
Anyone who expects others to use them has to be taking the piss (whether in a litter tray or not).

Pronouns exist solely to make communication easier and more fluid. As soon as they cease to do that, they're useless and the noun should be used instead. In writing, the shorthand of using initials can work well - I don't just mean re avoiding unusual or missexed pronouns but in general if you're writing re several different people on a team where he/she may rapidly become ambiguous and you've got Too Many Daves (or whatever the modern equivalent is).

oh god help us are we really heading in this direction!

Why pronouns plural?

Exactly. The fact that we have to say "she/her" and not just "she" or "she/her/her/hers/herself" just shows how stupid and ideological this whole thing is.

DS is as cynical as his mother about all this and tells me he identifies as an attack helicopter..

One girl at daughter's school goes by kitten/kittenself.

No one's asked DD(7) her pronouns yet but this would probably be her answer. We're well into her second year of identifying as a cat; I frequently use 'kitty' as a pronoun!

Now, it's totally different. Pronouns are a purity trap. They force us constantly to police our language and to pretend to believe something we know to be untrue. That is harmful. Language matters. Objective reality matters

It's madness isn't it. I couldn't imagine going to my place of work and making them address me as something that I quite clearly am not. That wouldn't make me feel safe and comfortable at all. Even if they did decide to go along with my delusion and agree, they know I'm not what I'm saying I am, they might keep a straight face, but they know, everyone knows. And they may talk about it amongst themselves when I'm not there, they may keep it to themselves, a minority might agree that I am what I say I am, others will go home and snigger or complain about the forced speech to their friends, partners, or online forums. Does that really make people safe and comfortable? really? I can't imagine for one moment that it would. Seems to me these people don't really care what others think as long as they put up and shut up. And if the Scottish hate crime bill ever came into play, then the Scotland couldn't even talk about it in their own homes. This is a very authoritarian and controlling ideology and it's one I won't be buying in to or supporting. People can dress how they want, I absolutely don't care about that. But don't even try and dragging me into that ideology and making me part of it. Because I will not be participating.

Various staff at work have English as a 2nd language - they quite often come out with a real mish mash of mistaken pronouns. I don't think anybody really minds, but I can only imagine extra counter-intuitive rules would make everything ten times harder for them.

I do a music hobby group thing - and there was a chap who decided to come out as a trans woman. He was a very big , large built male so as a trans woman was similar. We were told their new name and warned before they arrived. Everybody was bending over backwards to remember but the chap I was sat next to was asking me and we were stumbling over descriptions and pronouns like nobody’s business. I’m glad nobody heard us as I’m sure we sometimes used the wrong pronoun. We were trying desperately to not say anything wrong though

And there is the problem. We are being asked to collude with a lie and to police our speech to do so.

In my 20s, I was big into clubbing, and there were quite a few gay men who were intentionally effeminate (which I don't mean perjoratively) and who used female pronouns when socialising. But no one was expected to believe they were actually women. We used female pronouns for them when we remembered. If we forgot, no biggie.

Now, it's totally different. Pronouns are a purity trap. They force us constantly to police our language and to pretend to believe something we know to be untrue. That is harmful. Language matters. Objective reality matters.

I’m early fifties and if my work suggested it I’d simply refuse. (I’m weary with work as it is). I can’t see it happening now - my boss is so opposite to woke that he’d tell anybody where to go - but who knows

I was watching a glinner video on YouTube and what really resonated with me is that he said forcing pronouns was like that quiz where a word says ‘green’ but is written in red ink and then next word says ‘blue’ in blue ink, next word says ‘red’ in blue ink etc and you have to say the colour as quickly as you can and not the word that’s written. It’s so hard to do because your brain is seeing the colour and the word at the same time, sometimes matches and sometimes at odds with each other so your brain can’t cope! I’ve tried that quiz thing - it’s so hard. And that’s what pronouns are like .

I do a music hobby group thing - and there was a chap who decided to come out as a trans woman. He was a very big , large built male so as a trans woman was similar. We were told their new name and warned before they arrived. Everybody was bending over backwards to remember but the chap I was sat next to was asking me and we were stumbling over descriptions and pronouns like nobody’s business. I’m glad nobody heard us as I’m sure we sometimes used the wrong pronoun. We were trying desperately to not say anything wrong though.

For those who are not using it as power play, it might in fact lead to more anxiety. Once you decide, or are told, that you can and should control the inner perceptions of others and their speech in relation to you, well you have a massive undertaking right there, very stressful. Controlling what others think and say is going to be very hard work.

Then you are always alert to anyone who is not falling into line and using the words you have told them to.

Also, being honest, it must really put up barriers. Once people become aware that you are so dependent on them thinking and saying what you have “requested” despite it going against reality/grammar as we have generally understood it until recently, surely they are going to avoid you as much as possible to avoid the possibility of triggering such a fragile and demanding person?

If I find I have to inconvenience someone I generally feel uncomfortable about it. Those who wish to “inconvenience” everyone else at all times (and not just one person in one instance) by compelling speech, perception and even belief, how are they reconciling that natural discomfort? How can this possibly make them feel safer and more secure?

I wonder what became of catboy though. Lost touch. He’s probably an accountant or something now. Doubt he’s on zoom calls with “goodkitty/meow” as his pronouns.

Or maybe he engages in kitten play at Pride while his kids play in the litter tray.

@babbaloushka

One girl at daughter's school goes by kitten/kittenself. Apparently these are 'neopronouns'.

Anyway kittengirl hasn’t invented anything new!

I wonder what became of catboy though. Lost touch. He’s probably an accountant or something now. Doubt he’s on zoom calls with “goodkitty/meow” as his pronouns.

@babbaloushka I naively thought neopronouns was a joke...

@Siameasy interesting article, thanks

This is classic. Your tactic work and needs repeating up and down the country.