Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

[quote Ohalrightthen]@jj1968 if the rich are incentivised to have children, how come working class families are so much more likely to have 3 or more children?[/quote]
Because you don't need to be incentivised to have children you just need to have sex. And i'm not even sure that's true anyway, I'd be interested in seeing stats.

Oops. The type where parents ate one meal a day so the children had food, clothes were given to us by the church, no car, no phone, after fees were introduced for university, my brother went there on a grant because my parents income was so low (my father was disabled by then, but working poor throughout my childhood).

How exactly have I received a society that keeps me rich?

@timeforanewstart
So you accept that happily married women on modest incomes sometimes forget to take their pill and accidentally get pregnant with babies they would probably have kept in previous decades with the aid of a very small amount of benefits - benefits that the parents of many of the people on this thread, or they themselves, would have had the option to claim over the years.

Yet you want to deprive them of the options open to previous generations with the two child limit and force them to feel no choice but to abort a child that may otherwise have been welcome and loved because... why? The birth rate has hugely declined since universal child benefits were introduced in the 1970s and were still steadily declining prior to the introduction of this policy. As I explained before, birth rates decline when living standards rise as women have more opportunities and choices beyond getting married and having children. Child benefits help reduce the overall birth rate by raising living standards and helping children escape poverty.

This isn't just happening in the UK. The birth rate is going down globally as living standards rise. An increasing percentage of population growth is now coming from people living longer, aging populations, rather than the number of children born. Forcing women to have abortions isn't going to stop the population growth through aging. It's just cruel and unfair. The last child born doesn't overpopulate the planet by itself, it only does so because of all the rest of us already here not dying as young as we used to do, so we all need to work together to use resources more sustainably and stop punishing young generations for merely wanting families and children just like all those who came before them did.

They receive a society that is carefully calibrated to keep them as rich as possible

What?

Who do you think these rich are then?
I don't receive child benefit for my children. Both DH and I grew up in grinding poverty,

@jj1968 if the rich are incentivised to have children, how come working class families are so much more likely to have 3 or more children?

It depends on the benefit(s) being claimed, doesn’t it? And your personal/financial circumstances. But my understanding is that in most circumstances, if you have a third child, you can’t claim the additional amount that would support that child.

I’m happy to be corrected, though. It’s several years since I worked for the DWP.

@AlwaysLatte the benefit cap came in , in 2017 i think . Children born before that aren't capped at 2 .

I didn't know there was a benefit cap and it seems fair in principal (ie the average family income amount) but I agree that some people would have embarked on plans to extend their families further before the pandemic - when they could afford it. So there should have been a period of grace, surely?

@Cattenberg do you know what the benefit cap amount is

I’m opposed to the benefits cap. You can argue about the deserving and undeserving poor all you like, but it’s never a child’s fault if their parents can’t afford them.

I think it’s really sad that anyone should abort a wanted pregnancy for financial reasons. Some women must find that very difficult to come to terms with.

@jj1968 because the dr has studied for more years to get there and yes i did miss a zero
I have no desire to train or be a dr so therefore i can't complain I don't earn £100000 .
If you become a nurse you know the wage , we can't all earn the same for different jobs .
And my neighbour who is a nurse does drive a new 4 x 4 and goes on long haul holidays

Anyway we are not all going to agree i think cap on children is right
I think we should be looking more closely at why some people end up on benefits and how they can be helped and more help for disabled people who can never work through no fault of their own.
More social housing or cheaper rent as people would have more for food etc if rents were cheaper.

[quote timeforanewstart]@jj1968 that is a rubbish answer to why you think rich are incentivised
That applies to a very small amount a dr who has trained for years earning £10000 say deserves that long haul holiday and hasn't gained it at someone elses expense[/quote]
I think you missed off a zero there. And why does the doctor deserve that holiday more than a nurse, or a hospital porter or a carer?

@jj1968 that is a rubbish answer to why you think rich are incentivised
That applies to a very small amount a dr who has trained for years earning £10000 say deserves that long haul holiday and hasn't gained it at someone elses expense

@PearPickingPorky it is the women who get left to pick up
Pieces mostly but I don't think the men cause the pregnancies on their own
Its why single mums who have decent exes who pay for there children are better of than the ones whos exes don't as these days cm isn't taken into account.
I would like to see a better system
For making these dads pay as well

[quote nemeton]@jj1968 Do tell me how the rich are incentivised to have children, as you claim. They receive no child benefit, pay for education, healthcare, etc. I'm not seeing where the incentives are.[/quote]
They receive a society that is carefully calibrated to keep them as rich as possible.

@PearPickingPorky ok and what would these be

Statistically, it wasn't. We had discussions about it at the time.

A tiny amount of families were used to build a stereotype of the feckless poor. (Bloody channel 4) The average number of children for families that claimed a benefit was the same as other families that didn't.

If that was the case then surely the benefit cap wouldn’t have had that great an impact then

This thread has been a good reminder of why I stay on FWR most of the time, rather than venture onto the other boards.

There are plenty of ways to encourage people/couples to have only two children, via carrot, rather than stick, methods.

Using the stick means punishing poor women, and trapping children in poverty. Ots always women who have to suffer the consequences, never the men who cause the pregnancies.

@jj1968 Do tell me how the rich are incentivised to have children, as you claim. They receive no child benefit, pay for education, healthcare, etc. I'm not seeing where the incentives are.

@jj1968 what is the benefit cap

@jj1968 your bringing something else into it about people dodging taxes which isn't what thread is about
Just because one happens doesn't mean we shouldn't tackle other issues as well
Not everyone that drives a 4x4 or goes on long haul holiday is a tax dodger Im sure the vast majority have paid plenty of tax
Same as the vast majority who claim benefits don't do it to screw the system
But under the old system there were some people who seemed to get a lot , whilst others scrapped by
Re: wages yes could be increased and they have with min wage but with than the cost of living just goes up
Universal credits flaw is that it doesn't take into account hb element as fairly so someone living in a high rent area may get a similar amount to someone else in. Lower rent therefore disposable income can be vastly different , this area should be improved and allocated a bit fairer

For anyone interested I'd really recommend Betsy Hartmann's book on population and how fears of overpopulation have been used to attack women mostly in the global south. There's a decent review here: isreview.org/issue/108/convenient-smokescreen-overpopulation

@timeforanewstart

Yes I've claimed benefits. I've also seen the horrifying damage that the pittance given on the benefits system causes, from people including kids suffering from malnutrition, singles mums at their wits end after being threatened with sanctionsand workfare, the poorest being socially cleansed from many cities, disabled people driven to near suicide by endless assessments and the horrifying conditions many children are growing up in after being forced into B&Bs and temporary accommodation due to the benefit cap and other cuts.

MiddlesexGirl You are correct. This really confused me but it seems the rules were changed in February 2019 to cover those children- I'm sure before then you had to be claiming without a gap of more then 6 months if my memory serves me right? I'm glad its become more fair