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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

359 replies

niceberg · 03/12/2020 09:30

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/dec/03/two-child-limit-on-benefits-a-key-factor-in-many-abortion-decisions-says-charity

This was inevitable and as such must have been seen as an acceptable outcome by the government when it was introduced.

OP posts:
RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 03/12/2020 23:06

Excellent post jj

jj1968 · 03/12/2020 23:05

@Ohalrightthen

I;m just pointing out that its not correct that someone on benefits prior to the cap could afford to have three children and you couldn't. You could have left work and gone on benefits for a start. But you now seem to think being on benefits would condemn your children to poverty. Well perhaps it's not that generous then.

The people most affected by the benefit cap were lone parents in London, often with only one or two children, who were renting in the private sector. The introduction of the cap made them almost facing homelessness overnight. Some of them were working but couldn't work enough hours due to very young children to qualify for the exemption. Whilst many were propped up with discretionary housing payments from the council for a while most of them ended up first in temporrary hostels and B&Bs and then socially cleansed from the city and forced to move hundreds of miles away in some cases, into areas where they knew no-one.

Another large group affected by the cap were recently divorced/separated mothers and as many have already pointed out it is now hitting those who have lost jobs due to Covid. The cap has led to the horrifying rape clause, and has no doubt contributed to an increase of partner abuse and domestic violence. One of the rationales for the cap was that it would encourage families not to separate, by which, in Iain Duncan Smith's nasty little mind meant it would stop women leaving their husbands.

Of course the cap was never presented as an attack on these groups. It also hit the a very small number of large families which this forum's favourite newspapers attacked again and again in order to try and build support for cutting benefits. But these were only a small percentage of those hit by the cap. And whilst you might argue they deserved it a lot of these families were extremely marginalised, had problems with both mental and physical health, and had often lived traumatic lives and as a consequence made some mistakes. They have not been helped by being impoverished. All that does is ensure those problems are passed down to the next generation.

The cap was not introduced to save money, it cost far more to implement than it saved, It was done firstly to pacify the likes of the Tory faithful like the Daily Mail and The Spectator to show they were getting tough on claimants. Secondly it cleansed the poorest from central London and other cities like Edinburgh ensuring the new residents of the mutli million pound new built flats didn't have poor people living next door. And thirdly as I've said it was a hackneyed attempt to bring back 'family values' first touted by Iain Duncan Smith's Centre for Social Justice think tank.

There have been few more perfectly honed attacks to demolish the lives of many of the poorest women in the country who were collectively punished for the supposed sins of a very small number of large families portrayed, often dishonestly as feckless, when in reality they were often in areas of very high unemployment or had health problems or disabilities which prevented them working. Of all the things that happened in austerity it was one of the nastiest cuts of the lot, and the only one that was squarely aimed at working class women and their children who didn't have or want a man suppoting them. It was a direct attack on women's autonomy and one of the most misogynist economic policies we have seen in decades.

It also very nearly closed every women's refuge in the country, plunging the entire sector into insecurity for years until they finally accepted that refuge and hostel rents should be exempt from the cap.

nemeton · 03/12/2020 23:03

@timeforanewstart the child benefit limit is based on gross earnings, not after tax/ni deductions.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 03/12/2020 23:02

And the tax credits taken off me I was actually worse off , that can never be right

No absolutely not

nemeton · 03/12/2020 23:01

@jj1968 Am I rich? By most people's standards, yes. No child benefit, privately educated our children. We have no inherited wealth, we both work FT, we live very modestly, have one car, holiday every two or three years. I fail to see how society is "calibrated to keep us rich" as you term it.

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 22:37

@RufustheSniggeringReindeer yes its a lot of money but it was a reply to someone who said rich were not capped
But £50000 take home after tax and maybe paying for nursery , travel to work might not leave as much disposable income as people think
Never earned that amount but I do remember on old tax credit system I was offered more hrs but by time i had paid tax and childcare And the tax credits taken off me I was actually worse off , that can never be right

Ohalrightthen · 03/12/2020 22:35

@jj1968 so because i want to make sure my children have a decent life, because i don't want to condemn my children to poverty, i get to have less of them than someone who is deliberately bringing children into a miserable situation?

The benefit cap hands responsibility back to the parents. "Accidental pregnancy" just doesnt fly as an excuse in a society where we have ample education on and access to contraception and abortion. Perhaps, now that people know they won't be getting handouts for additional kids, they'll pay a bit more attention to family planning.

Of course this policy will negatively impact some people. Unfortunately, even the most widely benefitial policy will have negative impacts for some. But it has the potential to decrease the number of children condemned to an endless cycle of hereditary poverty.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 03/12/2020 22:30

Still a lot of money...

PinkPlantCase · 03/12/2020 22:28

@Ohalrightthen I completely agree with you, though the other side is that it isn’t fair for the state to allow the child to suffer if the mum has another child that she knows she can’t support. This is not the child’s fault.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 03/12/2020 22:27

[quote timeforanewstart]@LastTrainEast cap on child benefit is actually only applied to those on a higher income , over £50000 one earner and you get no child benefit at all [/quote]
Over 60k isnt it

jj1968 · 03/12/2020 22:26

[quote Ohalrightthen]@jj1968 well look at it like this then. i can't afford a 3rd child, and if i had one, the government wouldn't pay for it, as i wouldn't qualify for benefits. So why should a woman on benefits have her 3rd child, that she can't afford, paid for by the government? why does she get to have as many kids as she like and have the taxpayer foot the bill,when im limited only to how many i can afford?[/quote]
If you wouldn't qualify for benefits despite having three children then you are considerably better off than someone on benefits in the same situation. So it's not that you can't afford a third child compared someone on a lower income, it's that you have chosen not to have a third child because of the impact it would have on your lifestyle.

Ohalrightthen · 03/12/2020 22:21

@jj1968 well look at it like this then. i can't afford a 3rd child, and if i had one, the government wouldn't pay for it, as i wouldn't qualify for benefits. So why should a woman on benefits have her 3rd child, that she can't afford, paid for by the government? why does she get to have as many kids as she like and have the taxpayer foot the bill,when im limited only to how many i can afford?

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 22:18

@LastTrainEast or a system that also looks at what you have paid in
In a few european countries if you have worked and paid into system if you become unemployed, you get a percentage of your earnings for a few months
Thing is I know people on benefits who have had a third despite the cap and manage fine , then others seem to really struggle we should be looking at why this is
Rent will play a huge part , but what else , how can we help
Throwing more money isn't always the answer

hopingforonlychild · 03/12/2020 22:13

I just think of my MIL. She had 4 kids on a low income. I asked her once if they didn't have CB for 3rd and 4th child, would she had them? She said that she didn't even look at the welfare provisions when she had the kids, she just had them. And she would have even more if she could, despite struggling. Its a religious thing for her. Haredi Jews have 8 kids despite living in 2 bed flats.

I suspect most people who have the 3rd and 4th think similarly so the child benefit cap just means the kids have less.

LastTrainEast · 03/12/2020 22:12

timeforanewstart Well notice that I was responding to the claim that it was good for the planet.

I do get the arguments, but benefits are worked out so that there is no spare money. To feed/clothe an extra child you must take it from the others. And as I go on to point out some people have the 3rd child with every expectation of being able to afford it and then disaster strikes.

It's a rule written without thinking it through and really it would be fairer to make a 2 child limit for everyone. But it would never pass if it applied to people who matter.

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 22:11

@LastTrainEast jobs can go at anytime though , its something you have to always consider
A couple with one child and a high mortgage who loose a job won't get their mortgage paid as benefits doesn't cover whole mortgage payments
Shortterm Uc has been slightly increased due to the pandemiv

jj1968 · 03/12/2020 22:09

[quote Ohalrightthen]@jj1968 well then perhaps deincentivising will help! It is morally reprehensible to keep popping out kids you cannot support. Contraception is widely known about, promoted and available, as is abortion.[/quote]
More morally reprehensible than leaving kids to grow hungry and living in awful conditions in temporary accommodation because their parents made a mistake, or were just unlucky?

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 22:08

@LastTrainEast cap on child benefit is actually only applied to those on a higher income , over £50000 one earner and you get no child benefit at all

LastTrainEast · 03/12/2020 22:08

Of course with the pandemic some people with 3 or more children who were quite well off will now be unexpectedly poor. They will then be told that benefits will not be paid for the 3rd child and they presumably should stop feeding it.

Prestel · 03/12/2020 22:07

@timeforanewstart

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_Allowances_Act_1945
The Family Allowances Act 1945 (8 & 9 Geo. VI c. 41) was a British Act of Parliament and was the first law to provide child benefit in the United Kingdom

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 22:06

@LastTrainEast people can have more than 2 anyone and many on benefits still do as they make cuts in other ways
No one is saying anyone can't have but should state fund someone not working and having 6 children
What if we all decided to do that who's paying then?

Ohalrightthen · 03/12/2020 22:05

@jj1968 well then perhaps deincentivising will help! It is morally reprehensible to keep popping out kids you cannot support. Contraception is widely known about, promoted and available, as is abortion.

LastTrainEast · 03/12/2020 22:03

@Babdoc

Why is this seen as a problem? All kinds of families have to make decisions about whether they can afford an unplanned third child, not just ones on benefits. I was glad about the two child cap - it prevents abusive men fathering endless children on trapped abused women in order to live it up on the benefits - which they have no intention of spending on the poor wife or kids. And I remember my own hospital ancillary staff being angry at patients on benefits with six children, while they could barely afford two on their salary. The cap is perfectly reasonable- nobody needs more than two kids, and our planet is already overpopulated and suffering environmental damage and global warming as a result.
Only the children of the poor will affect the planet, causing overpopulation and environmental damage and global warming.

I know this is true as this cap is effectively only applied to the poor. If the children of the wealthier people could possibly cause any harm we'd have made a 2 child limit for everyone.

A two child limit for all would never pass into law would it.

timeforanewstart · 03/12/2020 22:01

@Prestel for years people didn't get benefits at all , my parents and grandparents didn't
Yes you may have one accidental pregnancy but as another poster said who has a large family there is ways to make it work
Benefit cap is like £20000 and can be more if claiming tax credits or uc and working .

jj1968 · 03/12/2020 21:59

@nemeton

Oops. The type where parents ate one meal a day so the children had food, clothes were given to us by the church, no car, no phone, after fees were introduced for university, my brother went there on a grant because my parents income was so low (my father was disabled by then, but working poor throughout my childhood).

How exactly have I received a society that keeps me rich?

Are you rich now?