Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

I wonder why Toynbee whose column was linked to is now an anti-abortionist? If you can't afford a kid and many many people couldn't in the past you couldn't have an abortion. Now you can free on the state. If you can't afford a child, have an abortion. What's wrong with that?

The UK isn't going to be like Spain, as someone else said, they are completely different and it would take a major cultural shift for so many people to be living with their parents until 30+ in the UK, for example.

Women in Spain go back to work earlier in Spain because they have to as well, maternity leave is 16 weeks, I wonder how Mumsnet users would feel about that being standard here.

Everyone is up in arms about children living in poverty with not enough food to eat in the holidays. But when it comes to down to how we solve that, ie give poor families more money, there’s so much wailing about how unfair and wrong it all is.

I agree with this. Unplanned pregnancies happen. I personally don't equate my decision to stick to two kids with a woman living in poverty feeling forced to abort a wanted accidental pregnancy.

And actually abortion has been legal in "Catholic Spain" for a long time and women make full use of it. I don't think low birth rates is bad by any means in our over populated planet. You cannot really be Green and advocate continuing high birth rates.

The Spanish plan everything very carefully. They don't leave home until 30 or more. They save every euro to buy a flat and they don't have children until they are settled in a flat with a permanent contract. They will have one child at the most unless very rich.

That is what is needed here, rather than propping people up on welfare tax credits and allowances

On the other hand Spain has always had much better nursery and childcare provision which is half the price of anything here. It was very easy for women to work in Spain in the so called Catholic country. Nurseries open from 7 a.m. in the morning until 7 p.m at night or even later and very affordable too. Many state schools are nurseries from age 3 with after school provision in place.

But the campaigning is for a proper living wage, lower housing costs and affordable childcare. That way the overall cost of adequate benefits to prevent child poverty goes down - while living standards improve for all. Win-win.

Instead living standards for working households have fallen in the last 10 years and benefits are no longer protecting the poorest. Lose-lose.

As said before I don't think there should ever be a cap on existing children with a new claim for working tax credits/ universal credits etc. However, I honestly see nothing wrong in saying to people already on working tax credits and benefits, if you have more children, you will have to spread your cloth thinner and your money won't increase. They are then free to decide whether to keep the baby or not and the reality of that for either decision.

Many families not on benefits go to work and pay taxes to pay for the benefits

Families on modest incomes with school age children do get benefits, though - they get child tax credits or the child element of universal credit - the very benefits affected by recent cuts and the two child limit. So those families still have to pay just as much tax, but are getting less back.

The majority of child tax credits are claimed by working families.

Nope, the 80s and 90s.

Oh, so when contraceptives were the same as now and the birth rate was the same as now but, unlike now, families could claim support for all their children?

Women take as much responsibility today as they did in the 80s and 90s, the only difference is we used to care about children and provided for them irrespective of why they came into the world, using education to reduce the number of unwanted pregnancies rather than using deprivation to reduce otherwise wanted pregnancies as we are doing now, despite the fact that our birth rate is already well below two and if it drops further our economic model will become totally unsustainable.

Yaassss

Problem is. Kids still there. Hmm.

Room for education on. If you're offing yourself take your kids with you. Otherwise even more pressure on the state Jesus how selfish.

''Cover-up': DWP destroyed reports into people who killed themselves after benefits were stopped
Up to 50 reviews into deaths following harsh social security cuts and sanctions have been shredded, officials admit'

www.google.com/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/dwp-benefit-death-suicide-reports-cover-ups-government-conservatives

Universal credit

'A watchdog is to investigate the government’s monitoring of suicides among benefit claimants amid concerns about links between welfare reforms and declining mental health.

The National Audit Office (NAO) said it would call on the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) to reveal what information it held on the issue, after ministers refused to provide an MP with figures on the number of people in the welfare system who had taken their own lives.'

BBC

'Nearly 5.5 million people are now claiming benefits across Britain - an 81% increase since March.'

Because there's a massive increase in the number of families claiming benefits? Due to massive job losses due to the pandemic, even with the cushioning from the government.

I'm surprised you hadn't noticed.

I don't see what or how Covid affects the benefits cap. I think Sunak granted a 1 year temporary benefit increase but it is due to end at end of March. Many families not on benefits go to work and pay taxes to pay for the benefits. These families often can't afford to have a second or third child themselves so why should they pay more taxes so people on benefits can keep having children they can't afford to pay for themselves? Two is fair.

Did you leave home before you got married, perveen?

If you have kids, is that what you did/ will do?

What's your feeling on living in a society where orthodox Christianity is the order of the day (maybe less so now, but that's where the abortion/ live at home thing comes from).

Sounds good?

Keep coming up with bullshit reasons that women needn't take responsibility, though.

[quote Ohalrightthen]@PearPickingPorky men have the ability to take zero responsibility for a pregnancy if they feel like it. women do not. that is a fact of life. It's not particularly fair, but there's nothing we can do about it. You would not rely on even the most responsible, morally upstanding man on the planet to protect you from pregnancy all by himself, unless you were stupid.[/quote]

Exactly. We can live in fantasyland or we can face reality. I prefer the latter.

Ultimately it is women and women alone who decide when a pregnancy will occur and what happens afterward.

Sounds ideal. There's no shortage of humans on this poor planet.

Why should we pay for Prince Louis but not little Louis from the estate?

Ah I see.

I read the post where a woman was saying it was awesome in Spain as no social security, not leaving home till you got married etc and think I misunderstood some responses.

I love Spain, and would actually love to move back when I'm in a better place, but I don't think the benefits system there is something to aspire to.