Impact of 2-child benefit cap on abortion decisions

Admittedly that was over ten years ago, and that particular council has made a fair shake at having more council housing than anywhere else. (Some families have apparently specialised in getting little empires of them, to sub-let)

Maybe it’s LA dependent then, as my experience was the same as a teacher in a particularly deprived northern town. Girls who wanted to get away from their home lives the only real option was pregnancy and setting up on their own. Quite a few would time their pregnancy for their 16th birthday. It was often used as a way of getting out from an abusive family.

One family no one had worked for generations, except for one woman who worked in the local benefits office. Knew all the ins and outs, how to fill out forms, which benefits they were eligible for etc.

It was very sad in many ways that to many youngsters there were no other opportunities.

I knew a few teens who got flats when pregnant in the 90s.

Someone I know was understandably angry and scared when their very sheltered, not very bright school age daughter was offered council housing as a reward for pregnancy. She said loads of her friends were getting babies so she wanted one. The social workers asked if she wanted more, and she said yes, so she could have a boy and a girl because one other girl in her class had, and it looked so cute to dress them up and put them in the same buggy, just as if they were twins.

On that basis, they told her she had better have a three bedroom house, because if she kept trying till she had a boy and a girl, they would need different bedrooms, so a three bed would save them the trouble of only having to move her all over again, later. Admittedly that was over ten years ago, and that particular council has made a fair shake at having more council housing than anywhere else. (Some families have apparently specialised in getting little empires of them, to sub-let)

MsSafina I used to teach at a large secondary school. Teenage pregnancy is an issue. Girls who got pregnant were never given flats. Never.

As I said upthread, countries with better social safety nets have lower birth rates, lower child poverty - and they also have lower teenage pregnancy rates.

The arguments and logic behind punishing the children of larger families or teenage parents by allowing children to grow up in poverty as a disincentive don't stack up. The more children grow up in poverty, the higher the birthrate, the higher the child poverty rate, the higher the rate of teenage pregnancy and teenage parenthood.

"Urban myth: Young girls who get pregnant are given a flat." Do you know any? I do and they were given a flat!

Don't facilitate large families. So no extra money for bigger families would seem like common sense.

The trollery and ignoring of reality on this thread is now blatent. Nobody with two braincells to rub together, who hasn't been living under a rock, genuinely still believes the long outdated urban myth that young girls who get pregnant are given a flat!

So don't reward young girls who get pregnant with a flat and benefits. If you say there is no reward in this behaviour, you will change the behaviour. What is needed though are apprenticeships and more college education but Covid has buggered everything up.

"Stop insinuating that women can't control their own reproduction."
Unfortunately they can't in the Middle East and Africa where they face extreme male violence and no rights. Something which some ethnic minorities would like to import into this country. Who is having numerous children on welfare apart from poor white people?

Folk don't get a wage increase if they have another child.

No, but they do get an increase in the child tax credits they receive - or they did until the two child limit was introduced.

"Folks who work" and "folks who receive benefits" are the same people in many cases. Cuts to child benefits have negatively affected large numbers of working families.

I don't think it's feasible that an increase in benefits is given every time people have another child. Folk don't get a wage increase if they have another child. They just have to manage on what they earn.

Why are you not in favour of birth control and control of birth rates?

I am, but I am also pragmatic. Birth control doesn't mean wanted and unwanted accidental pregnancies won't happen. Abortion services are needed just as children living in poverty need help. These aren't mutually exclusive opinions.

Also you missed out a bit of the quote above, she actually said "no more, no fewer'. This implies she supports choice either way (as do I).

There is absolutely no way we cared for children in the 80s and 90s.

Corporal punishment was legal in schools and encouraged in parents in the 80s and wasn’t outlawed in private schools until what, 1999 or something? Children who were victims of sexual abuse were not listened to, ignored, told to stop telling lies. Children were bundled into the backs of cars without a thought for their safety and smoked all over.

Yes, lone parents didn’t have to work until their youngest was 12, and they were given benefits for their children. But do you really think it was some sort of golden age for single mums and their kids?

Bullshit.

There is no shortage of human beings.

We are killing this planet and sending worthy species to extinction each and every day due to human overbreeding.

Stop insinuating that women can't control their own reproduction because we know that is simply false. Contraception and abortion work.

'Just to set the record straight: I am pro abortion. Very much so.'

Yes we're getting that, loud and clear.

"The right to choice means women should have the number of children they want, no fewer."
Actually, nothing wrong with this, providing you are not expecting the State to finance your breeding habits.

If you can't afford a child or don't want it, free abortion is your friend. How lucky we are! Not available for our sisters in more oppressive countries 😢

Just to set the record straight: I am pro abortion. Very much so.

"The right to choice means women should have the number of children they want: no fewer."
That's nice. First World Problems. Unfortunately, most women in the rest of the world are breeding instruments. We even have the same problem here with disadvantaged women and certain ethnic groups. Why are you not in favour of birth control and control of birth rates?

And polly is wrong.

We don’t always get what we want.

The alternative to women not being financially pressured to have terminations they don’t want is to introduce financial incentives for having children.

In an overpopulated world, that is unwise in the extreme.

"The right to choice means women should have the number of children they want: no more, no fewer"

Is what Polly says, if you actually read it.

There must be some kind of misunderstanding. Pro-lifers aren't banned from mumsnet, although if it's an argument you want to have, you'd be better off posting in AIBU or chat. Lots of web traffic, quite a few pro-lifers around there.

There is a lot of difference between saying that women should have access to legal and safe termination of pregnancy if they choose and saying that women should be financially pressured to have terminations they don't want to have. I'm certain you can appreciate the difference.

Looking forward to anti abortion arguments on a feminists site.