Government review of gender neutral toilets

I actually still have mine to do, I wasn’t sure how to construct it but I had the idea to look through all the published ones to give me ideas

Thank you for the nudge x

I think the extended deadline is tomorrow, isn’t it?

I’m quite encouraged by this section in the gov.uk call for evidence, to which @testing987654321 kindly gave us the link.

“ In recent years, there has been a trend towards the removal of well-established male-only/female-only spaces when premises are built or refurbished, and they have often been replaced with gender-neutral toilets. This places women at a significant disadvantage. While men can then use both cubicles and urinals, women can only use the former, and women also need safe spaces given their particular health and sanitary needs (for example, women who are menstruating, pregnant or at menopause, may need to use the toilet more often).

Women are also likely to feel less comfortable using mixed sex facilities, and require more space”

I would feel a bit happier if they’d said sex rather than gender in the paragraph immediately before it. Ah, well.

“ The government’s position is also of the view that there needs to be proper provision of gender-specific toilets for both men and women, with a clear steer in building standards guidance.”

(Can a “position“ be “of the view”? If it’s a landscape, I suppose...)

I had a govt survey on equality and toilets this morning, which struck me as odd but now makes sense. However it was badly worded and all about equivalent provision without defining that term (throughput, number of toilets, etc). Also asked if a man was desperate was it okay to use women's and vice versa. I struggled a little with that because it feels hypocritical to say okay one way and not the other but I decided it came down to safety and said okay for women, not okay for men. I did feedback that the survey wording meant it was pointless though!

One of the reasons women need single sex spaces is to protect them from predatory male sexualised behaviour at all ends of the spectrum verbal abuse, voyerism, sexual contact, masturbation, rape, sexual assault.

The average woman is significantly physically weaker than male bodied people and predatory male bodied people by definition exploit that to harm people (women and children) who are weaker and therefore vulnerable to their abuse. Trans women are not immune from this predatory sexualised behaviour from within their ranks. The recent *prison report that documented a significant instance of conviction for predatory sexual behaviour among the trans prison population provides clear evidence for this phenomenon.

The same safeguarding issues that arises with predatory men arises with predatory trans women.

The abuse of women and children by predators is a widely known phenomenon and any attempt to deny it is simply gaslighting by the person trying to deny it.

The same albeit blunt instrument that was provided to women to protect them from the presence of predatory men needs to be provided to protect them from predatory trans women. Aka single sex spaces.

Note of course it absolutely goes without saying that NAMALT and NATWALT apply. But it cannot every be okay to dismiss women’s concerns about this or b) to not allow this truth to be spoken simply because it causes someone offence.

*fairplayforwomen.com/prison-data-confirmed/

Compare that to a woman asking someone if they are in the right loos and getting yelled at, threatened and in some cases beaten up and thrown out of venues.

This is the response women risk if they query someone who looks male in a female bathroom.

Thats a question that's never been answered. How on one hand the mens is not safe but suddenly having those same men able to follow them to the womens or a gender neutral toilet is OK and not unsafe...

Same train if thought I guess where males should use the womens toilets so they are safe however if males attack the women in the toilet then women should just call the police. No one suggests the males use the mens toilet akd call the police if need be

He’s acknowledged it’s less safe in the men’s toilets but wants mixed sex so that women are all less safe I assume he’s hoping if he is threatened a woman will leap in to protect him. Because there isn’t some magic that makes a male predator behave differently in a mixed sex facility.

Essentially Felix wants women to be human shields to keep him safe

Weren’t they - aren’t they - under review / suspended for ‘unbecoming behaviour’

Didn't the people they worked for quietly just close the position entirely. Every thing else was hush hush . Dont think anything happened

There is a building regulations law isn't there about toilet provision being single sex and allowing space isn't there?

WPUK have a good thing on toilets so it might be there.

Thanks for sharing OP, this is useful and of course there's lots on toilets on this board for people to consider if they are sending emails. I will send one.

So let the men fix the issue. Not all men feel like this though - Fionne has that lovely shot of him in the gents - full frock and makeup, and said that a man asked him if he was in the right loos (Not sure of it was the same night). When Fionne said yes, I am a man - the chap looks then says ‘well you’re very pretty’ and went about his business.

Compare that to a woman asking someone if they are in the right loos and getting yelled at, threatened and in some cases beaten up and thrown out of venues.

Now remind me again, why is the issue it safety in mes loos not being addressed?

Felix is saying he shouldn’t need to feel unsafe in the men’s which is quite right. Men really need to stop being dicks to each other.

Yup - this isn't a women's problem, it's a man's problem.

But, as usual, women are the ones expected to fix it.

And juggling small children/babies and shopping bags...

Would 'technical evidence' be regarding relative floor space and layout design? I had never really given it much thought until I saw Clara Greed's talk about it. She basically said that because you can fit more urinals into a given space than cubicles, there is provision for more men to be using the facillities at the same time than in the women's toilets where we each need our own cuibcle. Add to that the undressing involved for women and it is no wonder that women have to wait for longer.

Weren’t they - aren’t they - under review / suspended for ‘unbecoming behaviour’

Their Trans consultant was Jess Bradley

Oh FFS

334bu - communal hand washing? Oh great. I’m sure women will be delighted to wash out their menstrual cups in front of a bunch of men.

I'm pleased it's being described as a 'technical' review.

It means the Govt hopefully won't be caving in to ideologically driven aggression and hurty feelz anecdotal tactics.

It wants evidence.

My local authority is using the Sheffield Hallam University project "Around the Toilet" when designing their new gender neutral toilets. In this projects toolkit one of the designs for such toilets is a mixed sex multi entry toilet block with communal hand washing. Their list of references is heavily weighted to research on disability and access for gender non conforming groups. There is absolutely no reference to any research on crime committed against women in these areas, no mention of voyeurism etc.Their Trans consultant was Jess Bradley

We should share this across Twitter, tagging the major feminist accounts.

Technical info would be useful - architects etc saying how to design in four lots of toilets - you need men, women, disabled and mixed otherwise the disabled is a free for all and guess who can’t get through the door of the other three categories

Interesting article here from the BBC on the 'urinary leash':

How the 'urinary leash' keeps women at home

www.bbc.com/news/world-41999792

Japan is referenced in that article because they have, in the last few years, tried to get more women back into work by improving public toilet facilities for women:

“Without appropriate environments where women can use sanitation facilities, their access to social participation in schools and workplaces is restricted,” (Haruko Arimura, Japan’s minister for women’s empowerment)
(^ toldd Japan’s World Assembly of Women last year.

www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-10-20/why-japan-wants-more-futuristic-toilets-for-women

Here's the details of the call for evidence. It's deadline is towards the end of Jan. I'm not sure what they mean by technical evidence.

www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence