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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Baroness takes on La Leche League

167 replies

CaveMum · 02/12/2020 19:54

Yet another fantastic letter from Baroness Nicholson to La Leche League re their stance on “chest feeding”.

twitter.com/baroness_nichol/status/1334210792468717573?s=21

OP posts:
HecatesCats · 03/12/2020 13:57

And in safeguarding of course. I find this capitulation extremely worrying

JoodyBlue · 03/12/2020 13:56

@CoronaCustard apologies if any of this was triggering. I didn't intend anything that way for sure. But much of motherhood is "natural" isn't it?

HecatesCats · 03/12/2020 13:56

Corona I've said on this thread and the previous thread on this subject that I don't think this is a debate about the rights and wrongs of breastfeeding and the pressure placed on women to do it and get it right (I had a nightmare myself, forced to take antibiotics for mastitis etc). It is about the perversity of an organisation which does buy into 'breast is best' behaving in this way. I do think the focus is best placed on their hypocrisy.

JoodyBlue · 03/12/2020 13:51

@HecatesCats yes exactly. Poor poor baby, how would anyone think that was ok? It really is a distortion of the natural bond between mother and child. There is no justification. None. It is abusive to the child and to the mother. There are some things that should not be for sale or purchase or accessible as an entitlement. The mother/child bond is sacred.

CoronaCustard · 03/12/2020 13:51

Can we just be careful of our tone.

I generally am on the side of ‘lets not blindly allow trans rights to infringe women’s rights’ - but as a natal woman who took fuck loads of drugs to be able to feed my babies - the fetishisation of perfect, natural motherhood bothers me.

TheLadyOfShallnott · 03/12/2020 13:45

I think it is far more than a kink when men use babies to achieve any sort of gratification.

Kink shaming makes it sound fluffy and harmless.

I think someone involving a baby to get jollies is far from harmless.

MichelleofzeResistance · 03/12/2020 13:43

Bravo Baroness. Again.

Breast feeding is something done by the mother for the baby. Often at the actual cost of blood, sweat, no sleep (for years sometimes), limited freedom and many tears, solely for the benefit of the baby. Mothers who can't successfully sustain breast feeding don't go on putting the baby on the breast for their own fun, and female relatives don't stuff the baby on to their breast for their pleasure and enjoyment because its about the child and feeding the child . And to most mothers, there's limited fun stuff about it at all, it's bloody hard work. Why do women say 'well done' with genuine admiration to women still managing to breastfeed after a few months? Because it is bloody hard work.

The baby is not to provide adults in its vicinity with lovely validating or sexual breast suckling experiences, regardless of how those adults feel about it.

The fact (yet again) that we have many birth mothers struggling to feed their babies (who actually need to be fed, and to gain weight and stuff like that) and manage the real aspects of being a birth mother breast feeding who are now trying to access help over a crowd of non birth mothers, many of whom appear to be male, who would like their equality shot at getting their desired experiences and see the baby as an extension of their experience, and are being pandered to by a mission creeped wholly overshot and politically captured bunch of services...…… says a whole lot about how society now views females. And children.

And that again, we have the harsh reality and the real people with the real experiences and needs being stuffed out of the way under the carpet by those with louder, more powerful voices who want to borrow the identity and the nice bits of the experience for their personal needs.

Winesalot · 03/12/2020 13:43

I must admit that in my extreme sleep deprivation, I would have also been concerned at misgendering in group situation.

Thank god i had access to a nhs run bf’ing clinic when I needed it. They were a godsend.

JoodyBlue · 03/12/2020 13:41

I really don't understand the push to bring kink into the mainstream. Surely the whole point is that it is not generally acceptable and that this is where the eroticism lies. As a culture we are seeing porn get nastier and nastier because it has become more accessible and the buzz for people isn't there. We need to put the brakes on for the sake of all of us. I do not think that is a prudish point of view. We are creeping from the thin to the fat edge of the wedge and that is a terrifying prospect.

HecatesCats · 03/12/2020 13:34

An organisation set up by women to support babies and women to successfully breastfeed, for the healthy development of the child, actually has a policy of allowing transwomen who want to breastfeed (why?) to join meetings and to receive support if they need it. Let that sink in. In these instances they would presumably have to facilitate male born people who can't actually properly breastfeed to disrupt the bonding process, and the ability of the mother to successfully establish breastfeeding, so that they could try to feed babies, the most vulnerable of all human beings. Thank god for women like the Baroness, honestly.

JoodyBlue · 03/12/2020 13:32

@CoffeeTeaChocolate I think that sounds brilliant and I am really glad that it is working well. When the partnership between mother and child works like that it wonderful. I did get to that stage with mine eventually but it took quite a lot of struggle initially. Baby and mum work together in that feeding relationship I think. But it is baby led isn't it? You cannot make a child feed really. The favourite side thing caused an issue for me :)

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 03/12/2020 13:11

Awesome awesome letter. Baroness, you bloody rock.

Anyone who thinks it's ok for a newborn to be used as a prop to validate a mans feelings has a serious problem. Really, if you're ok with this concept you need to go away and learn about safeguarding.

misses LangCleg

CatsCantCatchCriminals2 · 03/12/2020 13:09

Wanking in the toilets at work? In a rubber suit? At the NSPCC?

Pretty fucking shameful if you ask me.

CatsCantCatchCriminals2 · 03/12/2020 13:08

This thing called "kink shaming"..

You're not supposed to do it, I imagine.

But why? It's fucking horrible what these men get up to, non?

niceberg · 03/12/2020 13:06

gardenbird98 agreed, the effect on men themselves is a concern. My point was really that the argument about the drug getting through to babies is not a strong argument as that happens when women are prescribed it. I think it undermines the thrust if weak arguments are included in an approach like this.

CoffeeTeaChocolate · 03/12/2020 13:05

Joody, I have to confess, I BF for my own benefit. It was easier than to sterilise bottles (which I did occasionally as well as I expressed and my husband did a night feed), food was always available and it helped me to be completely flexible when out and about.

However, I had excellent help the first few days and I had the second highest milk supply the nurse had seen in her career. I was very aware of how lucky I was compared to some.

In addition, it was all about being a food machine, the cuddles and hugs was there all the time anyway.

JoodyBlue · 03/12/2020 12:59

@PinkyU mothers breast feed because it gives their baby the best start in life. It is often very difficult and painful and tiring. Still that is the reason they do it. No mother that I have met has started breast feeding for her own benefit. It is not supported well in our society. The job of La Leche is to offer that support. To women who are struggling to do it for their baby because it is difficult for some many reasons that only new mothers will really get.

gardenbird48 · 03/12/2020 12:56

@niceberg

I think it's a great letter - although I do think their is weakness in her argument about the use of the anti-emetic drug to trigger 'milk' production, in the narrow sense of its effect on the babies being fed - as it is prescribed to women struggling to produce milk, so there is years-long precedent for this off-licence use.
the enormous difference here though is that it has been used in women to trigger their own natural milk production, not men in which there could be unforeseen/unnatural effects because the male body is not designed for that purpose.

Aand this is where is ends up for women..... the lady was apparently forced to resign by her company who were extremely resistant to her need to pump milk on her return to work after 8 weeks maternity leave Hmm. She lost the court case apparently because 'she didn't fight the forced resignation hard enough' but would have lost anyway because:

Sherwin also noted another reason the court denied Ames' motion for a hearing: "The trial court also held, nonsensically, that even if Angela had been fired because she was breastfeeding that was not sex discrimination, in part because men can lactate under certain circumstances."

www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/ames-vs-nationwide-breastfeeding-discrimination_n_6653418?guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb25zZW50LnlhaG9vLmNvbS8&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAALPUdkE13_hNQ-uLLEG_oD22oAKQjr5KHmu9S1dmmejUlj7i3GKoQ3KVSWv2an3AL_NxIlI3WHBlIhIkCvgX8CkwxZjKyfRl0GmJpK_rZGPObVssduYTfsasM_jHQaZil0g_FC8ymakClNbCOvXx5H8pfyGbOwS6EOG5rtspH6y8

CuriousaboutSamphire · 03/12/2020 12:47

@PinkyU

The protocol used to induce lactation is the same that’s used for adoptive parents, same sex couples, parents seeking to relactate, those who have IGT or have undergone mastectomy’s.

Whilst not ideal (as in anything that requires outside influence in a natural event), it’s not unsafe provided any medications are monitored.

Do you have an issue with all of the above also?

OMG! The obfuscation and misappropriation in there!

WOMEN who adopt can look into having intervention to start them lactating... a FEMALE function!

As for the male breastfeeeding in other cultures! As others have said... male nipples make very effective dummies/pacifiers and the skin to skin contact helps strengthen the parent/child bond. Men are, after all, parents too. Just not mothers!

Winesalot · 03/12/2020 12:45

Yes. I am genuinely shocked by the number of people who simply don't consider this alternative.

Well.... we are all big meanies for suggesting it. Kink shaming remember. And those who wish to believe the best of everyone refuse to acknowledge that the truth of it is only a google search away and is usually self published personal accounts of those doing it ....

In fact, I don't think I have come across any males breastfeeding that haven't mentioned the erotic effect and a few question why women have kept it secret.Hmm .

Datun · 03/12/2020 12:30

Yep.
And it's no great secret that some men dress up as women to have a wank. Some of these men will also fetishise pregnancy and breastfeeding, and some of them will be paedophiles.
I suspect that the number of misguided, harmless male people who genuinely just want to feed the baby -and believe they can do it - is going to be quite small compared to the number of male breastfeeders who are driven by a paraphilia.
When did people become so naive?

Yes. I am genuinely shocked by the number of people who simply don't consider this alternative.

However, it's not helped, in any way, shape or form, that references to it are jumped on and censored.

On this site alone, many are instantly reported and posters have to perform all manner of linguistic gymnastics in order to even raise the subject.

Justcall01189998819991197253 · 03/12/2020 12:27

@CoffeeTeaChocolate

To be very honest, I sometimes find the push on women to breastfeed unsettling. Some women beat themselves up so much if it is hard or if they have low milk supply. I don’t know this particular charity, but if anything can be done to help women whilst still acknowledging that breastfeeding is hard, stressful and sometimes not the right choice in your particular circumstances I applaud that. And I do not think any male born who is keen on validation should be allowed within a mile.
Yes, and far from "electrifying" I cried every single time my baby fed, fearful that baby was not getting enough, that it would hurt again, of the blocked ducts which stopped milk, and that I would fail them by not breastfeeding, as I felt I had failed their sibling.

I certainly wasn't getting off or doing it for my benefit. LLL have managed to further alienate women.

TreestumpsAndTrampolines · 03/12/2020 12:00

A known metabolite of spironolactone, can-crenone is excreted in human milk. This has been shown to be 0.2% of the maternal daily dose, which is thought to be clinically insignificant

Spironolactonehas been reported to have tumorigenic potential in rats,but according to the American Academy of Pediatrics, it is thought to be compatible with breastfeeding.

Dunno. I find it odd that they're OK with that, but I wasn't allowed cold medication, and they wouldn't even sell me Olbas oil to sniff for it... Admittedly that was probably jobsworth Boots assistants.

RozWatching · 03/12/2020 11:59

@HecatesCats

The issue is that (regardless of the politics around breastfeeding) LLL has a specific remit, it believes that breast is best for the health and the wellbeing of baby and mother. Whether you, or I, disagree that with view is by the by, the point is that LLL is not fulfilling its mission as a charitable organisation by supporting transwomen who (for some reason) want to breastfeed babies women have given birth to, or welcoming them into breastfeeding groups.
Yep. And it's no great secret that some men dress up as women to have a wank. Some of these men will also fetishise pregnancy and breastfeeding, and some of them will be paedophiles. I suspect that the number of misguided, harmless male people who genuinely just want to feed the baby -and believe they can do it - is going to be quite small compared to the number of male breastfeeders who are driven by a paraphilia. When did people become so naive?
TheLadyOfShallnott · 03/12/2020 11:57

The day a man, in whatever identification mode he chooses, can give birth to a baby through his own genitalia (preferably the one born with and not one chosen from a catalogue) will be the day I may consider to accept that they also have a valid need to breast feed.

Till then, chest feeding with a chemically produced soup - it will never be a mother’s milk - doesn’t cut it.