Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight

So we have these in the U.K.? I thought that was a US think (with humongous payouts).

A Class Action might be a good idea

There was a lot or moral strong-arming though with KC.

Speaking of Kids Company, that matter has currently resurfaced:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9012395/Alan-Yentob-denies-strong-arming-ministers-handing-millions-doomed-Kids-Company-charity.html

What is clear is that Susie Green has no interest in detransitioners. She seems to regard Keira as an irritant that should go away rather than a cause for alarm. The Tavi and Mermaids need to be working with Keira to prevent repeats of this awful mistake, not describing greater oversight of the process as a disaster, parroting false suicide stats and misrepresenting the detransition rate.

I haven't read it yet but my suspicion is that the study on detransitioners was carried out on middle-aged mtf transitioners, not the current cohort of transmen.

Unfortunately for Susie, there are a lot of detransitioners out there now. To be fair, a lot of them seem to be in America. However, they're on YouTube. They're on Reddit (still, just, I think) sharing their experiences. A lot of them probably feel too fragile to take on court proceedings now, but as they get older they might.

Keira's win will give some of them courage to start thinking about their options.

I've finally watched it. EM had done her homework. And Keira was so calm and composed - very impressive.

Given all those caveats, the true regret figure could be literally anything.

Exactly. Keira is only 23. There have been 7 years of patients treated in between Keira starting treatment and this ruling who are still only in their late teens and early 20s. The huge rise in girls going on PBs and testosterone is not included in any study.

No one can confidently claim what the detransition rate is because this is a live experiment.

Thanks Stand, I came on to post it too! I get the sense that Janice is feeling even bolder than usual

It was purely a paper exercise; they only looked at the clinic notes and made no attempt to follow up patients. There is a whole host of reasons why a patient who felt their treatment by a clinic was wrong would not return to that clinic.

"NotBadConsidering" - thanks for the link to the paper. The 1% is amazingly misleading. Here's the disclaimer from the paper:

Our findings could be an underestimation of people with regret after gonadectomy, because some might choose to go elsewhere for reversal therapy or might experience regret without pursuing reversal surgery or HT. Regret might not always result in a desire for reversal therapy, as it may be hidden from others. In addition, in our population the average time to regret was 130 months, so it might be too early to examine regret rates in people who started with HT in the past 10 years.

So not only are they only looking at regret for people with gonadectomy, it's also too soon to expect regret for most of their population (unsurprisingly, the number of patients has increased dramatically over time), and finally they only count people who actually return (to the same clinic that they regret using) for further drug or surgical intervention.

Given all those caveats, the true regret figure could be literally anything.

@NotBadConsidering that’s appalling! I wondered where her 1% came from.

The wonderful, wonderful Janice Turner writing in the Times today about Susie Green and her Newsnight performance. It is some way into the article (but do read it all because the opening story about tandem bicycles made me snort my tea).

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/5428218a-34de-11eb-b015-3b650b0f0101?shareToken=772981375bd9429488d0684b940e9864

Remember Kids Company? The great and the good queueing up to laud the founder and throw shedloads of public and private money at it? Then when questions finally started being asked we were told that without KC there would be social unrest and rioting in the streets?

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/aug/25/kids-company-warned-officials-closure-could-lead-to-riots-and-social-unrest

Now you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone admitting to ever having supported it.

nauticant

To clarify further, the “fewer than 1% detransition” lie is usually accompanied by this paper from the Netherlands:

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29463477/

It is frequently embedded as a link in newspaper articles etc.

Except what it actually shows is that fewer than 1% regret the gonadectomy they have undertaken. So they asked the most committed of all medical trans patients if they regretted gonadectomy and fewer than 1% did.

This paper in no way describes that fewer than 1% regret puberty blockers, cross sex hormones, the infertility they now have, the fact their sexual function never existed, their mastectomy, their vaginal atrophy, their permanent facial hair, their permanent voice change. None of that is listed. None of that has been explored.

It’s a deliberate and totally scandalous use of a paper to legitimise a process in a false way.

It’s utter lies, and anyone who repeats that trope is just as reckless as someone who repeats false suicide stats.

Maitlis is brilliant. She doesn't give SG an inch. Firm, polite, unyielding. A masterclass.

I think SG must be feeling a bit desperate. She is being confronted with a reality that is now colliding with her world, which is entirely based on her decision to use unlicensed drugs and drastic surgery on her child.
There is nothing else.

Yes, between Jolyon Maugham telling the kids they'll need to get their drugs on the dark web and Mermaids telling them they'll have to suffer the hell of puberty, and suicides are likely, I can't believe these people are still in positions of apparent responsibility. I really hope that someone from GIDS or the Tavi steps up and offers a bit of level headed sobriety soon; this hyperbole and drama is in itself potentially damaging.

Yes, it's unbelievable that they are allowed to freely perpetuate the idea that being a trans kid involves being suicidal, it's madness?!

The other thing that pissed me off about the interview was when she said about how these drugs are perfectly safe and have been used for decades (she started going about Denmark at one point I think?). If they have been used for decades for this purpose and are 'known to be safe' then why are they not licensed for this use?

I'm really concerned that SG’s hysterical melodramatic rantings & the publicity given to them are likely to cause suicides and trauma amongst vulnerable young people. I don’t understand how even Mermaids can enable such dangerous & irresponsible behaviour. It’s shocking.

Yes, between Jolyon Maugham telling the kids they'll need to get their drugs on the dark web and Mermaids telling them they'll have to suffer the hell of puberty, and suicides are likely, I can't believe these people are still in positions of apparent responsibility. I really hope that someone from GIDS or the Tavi steps up and offers a bit of level headed sobriety soon; this hyperbole and drama is in itself potentially damaging.

Susie G is really bone headed. Gillick competence is a test applied in individual cases. You don’t stop applying that test in individual cases for a particular treatment because most people who have the treatment are happy with it. This falls into the “not even wrong” category; it’s so moronic one can’t really even engage with it.

Someone this ignorant should not be in a position of influence at a charity.

I suffered from MH problems when young and a relative killed themselves as a teen. I’m really concerned that SG’s hysterical melodramatic rantings & the publicity given to them are likely to cause suicides and trauma amongst vulnerable young people. I don’t understand how even Mermaids can enable such dangerous & irresponsible behaviour. It’s shocking.

Agreed Nauticant and endof they seemed to be following a rather strange script in view of what the judgement was about.

The BBC are captured.

I was troubled by what I heard on Woman's Hour Angryresister. I honestly think the BBC are afraid of reporting honestly about this case and are motivated to soften its impact.

One can support the ROGD child without affirming them socially.

I'd exempt changes in personal style from this (hair, clothes). I think it's important to allow aesthetics to change while holding the line that a child's natal sex does not define their personality. Nothing wrong with butch girls or feminine boys.

Nauticant i just listened to the woman’s hour podcast and was astonished that what was not said...seemed an attempt to cover only the terrible effects on not able to get what they want. Nobody actually said that of course therapy and counselling would be put in place, which seems an obvious way forward. The emails at the end were carefully chosen and did reflect the GC view, a heterosexual woman who would have said she wanted to be a boy as a child, and a mother of a child just about to start at gids . Caring about her child who she said was bullied. Also slightly ott re how judgement will lead to transphobia. The presenter has asked people to contact them if they are affected by the judgement..so all those relieved parents could maybe write in...

I just watched the Newsnight clip and was just horrified at Susie Green. She comes across as flailing around desperately, throwing everything out there, including suicide several times, and hoping something sticks, Emily Maitlis is so cool and calm in comparison.

Agree with PP - why is it that all Susie has is 'anecdotal evidence'? She says herself she has worked with thousands of children and families, did they not think to collate some kind of date collection to justify what they were doing?

Totally think that Emma Watson quote tweet is a desperate attempt to start bringing others down with them!

I feel so sorry for all those poor children who were promised so much, who are now waiting for 'treatment', or who have actually started treatment, because this will be a blow for them. Because they were lied to by the adults around them.