Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight

I have a DS who was like Jazz when he was very little, right down to the same Disney dresses and lots of dolls. In my opinion it's not a phase as such but a personality that is finding ways to express itself. Very young children are limited in how they can express themselves but as they get older it evolves.

DS left behind Disney dress up and Barbies when he was around 8 entirely of his own accord but the personality and interests that drove him to enjoy those toys remain.*

This is beautifully expressed, thank you, and much more nuanced than what I wrote. No-one's personality or the way they express themselves is static or independent of their age or the world around them and everyone grows up (especially if allowed to go through puberty...)

DS left behind Disney dress up and Barbies when he was around 8 entirely of his own accord but the personality and interests that drove him to enjoy those toys remain.

He's become very involved in arts and drama, loves fashion and is forever cutting up customising his clothes to get the exact look he wants. He's in his mid teens now and I'm fully expecting him to end up studying art or design of some kind.

What a disaster if I'd decided age 4 that all the above meant he needed medical help.

'I can't do the girl stuff I have been wanting to do for many years'

What is this 'girl stuff'?! Other than menstruating, gestation and so on? I mean ffs, if any man or boy out there wants to wear a certain item of clothing, do go the fuck ahead, nobody really cares! Honestly! Paint your nails, go wild!

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/k5yv42/feeling_quite_hopeless_and_very_isolated/

Example here of a "mtf" who clearly has a lot of other issues that need addressing, and has been brainwashed by "allies" on social media into thinking that everyone wants them dead. They've started to transition but still can't seem to find friends with whom to live the life they'd envisaged. The fact that the promised life has failed to materialise is put down to transphobia.

I was listening to the Savage Minds podcast with Marcus Evans this morning, and he was talking about how psychiatry always wants these "magic bullets", these quick simple solutions, and how tempting it is to think that transition is the answer to all these complex problems that people have.

I think, as Keira said, better and accessible mental health care is needed. Oh, and for people to get the fuck off social media for a while.

DD, as a young teenager just wanted to wear what her friends wore. Whatever your friends do, there you follow.
She used to talk a lot about "the group", she isn't in my group so I can't be friends with her.

It isn't to much of a stretch to see if you aren't socially at ease you will do your best to fit in with whatever group makes you feel good about yourself.
Like cults it doesn't start with straight-out indoctrination it just starts with "welcome".

But even if they were gender non-conforming and it wasn't a phase, why should that make us query whether they are, in fact, the opposite sex?

Watching the Jazz Jennings video, it was all focussed on whether it was a phase that she was "girly" or not. It seems to be that it it is not a phase, then you are transgender with transgender meaning that you were born in the wrong body. I am not of the view that we should abolish gender, but we do need it to be unremarkable for people to be gender non-conforming and for society to be accepting even when it is "extreme" or longlasting

If transgender simply meant extremely and persistently gender non-conforming, but said nothing about sex, it would be a useful term. If society was accepting of being transgender in these terms (as a descriptive term like "sporty" or "blonde", rather than an identity), it would be something you could happily be without any need to ask anything of anyone else or to want to make physical changes to sex characteristics. It would still make sense that some people who were transgender in these terms might nonetheless feel more comfortable asking the world to regard them as the opposite sex, and it would be great if society could accommodate that socially, but it would be with full understanding on all sides that this does not change their sex.

Transsexualism could then be the term for people who wish to change their primary sex characteristics because they believe that they are the wrong sex, and we would have some people who are both transsexual and transgender. This last group are the group that the GRA was created to serve.

I worked at a private, all-girls school for a short time once. It was back in the days before the rapid increase in children identifying as trans.

There was a severe issue with anorexia among the year 11s that the school was trying to deal with. I am not sure whether eating disorders are typically found in girls' schools, but it wasn't a widespread problem among the girls at my mixed-sex comprehensive in the '90s (individual girls battled it, I know) nor did I come across large outbreaks of anorexia at another comprehensive I worked in.

I mention this only because I know transitioning has been linked to eating disorders.

Have there been more clusters at all girls schools?

It doesn't strike me as a great set up, frankly.

I know many FTM transitioners and those who have taken T have all ended up with a very different look: bald head, lots of facial hair, big belly, kind of a "reddish" tint (I asked and apparently T often causes blood pressure issues).

Yes, they start off well, looking fresh-faced and boyish, and then it all goes wrong later. Did anyone else read the link about the Korean eunuchs? It seems that testosterone may actually shorten life, which is why men generally don't live as long as women. I wonder if they warn FTM transitioners about that.

My 18 year old DD didn't even like dolls and dresses, hated frills, dislikef pink. She is heterosexual and gender 'conforming" likes makeup and buying clothes now. And her brother who is also gender "conforming "and heterosexual loved dressing up and soft toys and playing house and sparkly unicorns when he was five.
It is all such nonsense to demarcate the interests of five year olds.

It really is shocking that even from those promoting transition there seems to be no effort made to give these young FtoMs a realistic idea of life ahead.

I've seen on Reddit forums young FtoMs actually surprised that gay men aren't keen on their vaginas. How could that come as a surprise

They get their "information" from Yaoi anime and fanfic. They imagine a soft cartoon androgynous gentle boi. Unfortunately, one cannot transition to a drawn character. I know many FTM transitioners and those who have taken T have all ended up with a very different look: bald head, lots of facial hair, big belly, kind of a "reddish" tint (I asked and apparently T often causes blood pressure issues).

And this is just the aesthetics.

When in a public place with others, there is much hair flicking and fake “girly” mannerisms. Having teenage daughters who don’t do any of that makes it incredibly irritating to see, this parody of girlhood, reducing teenage girls to silly, affected bits of fluff.

This is something Stephanie Davis Arai talks about. Normal, possibly awkward teenage girls, look at boys like that and then look at themselves, thinking if that's a girl then what the hell am I?

That jazz clip is so shockingly revealing.

The awful, saccharine interviewer describing jazz's 'world' as suddenly being 'crystal clear' based on jazz being forbidden to wear dresses.

Ffs. All of them banging on about dolls and dresses and femininity.

Utterly blind to their hopeless, dangerous sexism.

This has potential to be a medical tragedy up there with lobotomies except I suspect that those scientists and doctors who came to the conclusion these treatments did not work were not subject to criminal investigations for hate speech, death and rape threats and cancel culture and that such failed treatments, hideous as they seems to us now we’re properly documented so that science could move on when the evidence mounted that they did not address the problem they sought to cure.

Teenage girls have no idea what being an adult man is like, they are fleeing from being adult women, into an idealised fantasy of masculinity.

And it's similar for boys/men who think they want to be women. Most of them seem to think being a woman is all about being decorative. They have no idea what being a woman is really like, just a fantasy of being a woman seen from the perspective of a male.

climb down from this

pearpickingporky SophoclestheFox

Yes, completely agree that you have to give people a way to climb down this.

And then maintain eternal vigilance, because they've demonstrated that they are susceptible to being completely hypnotised by wokery without thinking through the ramifications for children and women - not even those they are professionally responsible for ...

You have a child who plays with the wrong toys, clothes and friends and meets the sexist stereotypes that make up the diagnostic criteria for childhood gender dysphoria.

Then you start puberty blockers to prevent the “wrong” puberty.

Then you start the cross sex hormones.

Then you start the drugs to improve bone density.

Then you start the drugs to alleviate symptoms of premature menopause.

Then you start the anti-depressants when your mental health hasn’t been improved by any of this thus far and you realise you’re infertile and will never experience what your friends describe as “sex”.

Then you start the drugs to manage the increased risk of stroke and heart disease.

Then you start the antibiotics to treat the constantly infected neo-vagina made out of bowel tissue and an inverted prepubertal penis. You repeat this step multiple times through life.

Then you start the hysterectomy for the uterine pain from testosterone.

Then you start chemotherapy for the cancer you’re now at increased risk of.

What a fantastic pathway this is, being championed. All stemming from the “wrong” toys .

Am trying to channel JKR in the classiness stakes, and not my natural self, which is to launch into a spirited rendition of the I Was Right dance.

See, I'd be sitting on my hands not to post a reply with screenshots with "remember you said this, and this, and THIS? Huh? What do you have to say about THAT now? How many children have you sent to be harmed by your lack of thinking???"

But, as I say, that would be extremely counterproductive.

Regarding Jackie Green - Jackie's tiktok page suggests that Jackie still requires a significant level of support dealing with the trauma of their life so far.

a spirited rendition of the I Was Right dance

I think Jackie Green was given drugs to stop any more growth.

Oh really? If true, that's a lot of drugs to cure the problem of having a son who wanted to play with dolls.