Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight

Wrong link! This is the dysphoria thread!
twitter.com/AlexAlicit/status/1328079116151754757?s=19

Agree about the language, Ova. I read a thread recently about the need to interrogate the use of "dysphoria" as a catch-all term too

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0906jnr

I was so relieved to see EM actually presenting the story in a competent manner. The reports on BBC 1 and ITV were hopeless and very biased against Keira.
EM has great courage and integrity.

although I also have a problem with the concept of children being "gender non confirming

Yes, I agree. Also, kids tend to copy their parents and gender roles are less clear cut than in the past.

For example, I know a few stay at home dads. In my experience, cooking is shared pretty evenly among couples my age (thirties) whereas among my parents' generation, the women do about 90% of it. On the Tube I hear a lot more female train drivers making announcements than I used to.

So, if a little boy wants to wear a baby carrier with a doll in it (because his dad carries his baby sister that way) or play with a toy oven so he can make a casserole like his dad, or a little girl wants to be a train driver like the lady she heard on the Tube, do such activities still count as 'gender non-conforming?'

I think EM could have pushed further but I enjoyed seeing SG getting huffy and agitated. GIDS have stopped referrals and Big Pharma stocks are down.

Keira, Mrs A, Susan and Marcus Evans and Stephanie D-A have done more for children that Mermaids ever did or ever could.

Fanny, I was wondering this the other day - do those tweets mean the Dutch adolescent cohort who received biomedical transition/SRS were those with early childhood onset? In a way I don't know if that's any more reassuring...

I didn’t see it - shall try to catch up today. I hope that parents, schools, kids clubs, girl guides etc are watching closely. And lawyers - those buggers have been part of the business machine pushing and cheering this on...

Are there grounds for another report to the Charity Commission? Mermaids now moving from incompetent to actively dangerous.

Definitely worth looking into.

although I also have a problem with the concept of children being "gender non confirming "

True. Also a good point. It shows how we get caught up in language and how language used is a big driver behind it.

Thank you for the link to YouTube. It was a very good piece from Kiera and the other one was completely feelz driven and with no regard for young people as a whole at all.

Are there grounds for another report to the Charity Commission? Mermaids now moving from incompetent to actively dangerous.

The Dutch study wouldn't help that much anyway would it?

Regardless of the outcome surely the understanding or lack of, would remain the same?

And yes if they improved without treatment, was the difference so significant that it warrants all the negative side effects

Very good point Ova.
It's more wordy to say, for instance "children who present as GNC" although I also have a problem with the concept of children being "gender non confirming " since that is the crux of the problem - expectations of conformity in children who should just be free to be children.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0906jnr

The iPlayer link doesn't work outside UK but this clip from Newsnight's own website works for me ☝️

I posted this link to this twitter on the other thread but here are some details of the Dutch study.

twitter.com/zaneemma/status/1332930732558221312?s=21

We need to move away from this notion of 'trans kids'. It's an invented term - clever PR. I've fallen into the trap of using it before because it's easy shorthand.

Reading yesterdays judgement it's clear there is no such concrete thing. What we have is a group of children who for a wide variety of complex reasons are either distressed or GNC and end up at the Tavistock.

Labelling them from the outset with a group identity before exploration has taken place is part of the problem. We know that left to go through a natural puberty the majority will grow out of gender dysphoria therefore it's unhelpful for lobby groups, clinicians and especially the media to be constantly affirming the idea of trans kids, particularly in those that are very young.

But yeah, they didn't even get as far as court.

TT showed that they had evidence relevant to the case and were granted permission to intervene. Stonewall and Mermaids didn't show that and so were refused. However, they had the same opportunity as TT.

Mermaids and stonewall were given the chance to present evidence

Just to be clear, mermaids did not get to present evidence in court. They have no medical expertise or knowledge, as clearly demonstrated by SG in this interview.

It was the actual Tavistock who got to present their case, and they didn't have evidence. And unlike SG they do understand what evidence means.

I'm sure the refusal for them to take part is on here somewhere, but this is the first link I found.

https://christianconcern.com/comment/stonewall-and-mermaids-refused-permission-to-intervene-in-tavistock-case/

EM was brilliant - she stuck to the facts, and was quick to dismiss the (very unprofessional) suicide claims made by SG.

I thought she gave a bit of a triumphant smile to the camera at the end of the programme. Thank you so much, if you happen to read this, Emily, for keeping the need to safeguard children at the heart of the agenda.

Pressed post too soon. At first I found it funny at her telling people to fuck off (so dignified) but this post is a bridge too far for me.

Susie Green is completely losing it on Twitter.

Really? Making sure that children understand the long-term consequences of their decisions before being set on a pathway of irreversible physical changes including sterility is a 'disaster'?

How dim do you have to be to go on national television and describe the act of protecting children 'a disaster'? She couldn't even couch her views in more nuanced language or pretend to support the court's aim of looking after children.

Courts do deal in evidence. The Tavistock had every opportunity to provide it. Mermaids and Stonewall were given the chance to put forward evidence too. If they had been able to supply anything that was (a) new and (b) relevant to the case, they would have been invited to join the case as interveners, in the same way that Transgender Trend was.

The evidence wasn't there.

Please let this be the beginning of the end for the sinister group that is mermaids.