Susie Green and Keira Bell on Newsnight

I think this is about this programme but the BBC has said it wasn't an issue that no trans person took part in this debate!

BBC rejects complaint after trans people left out of Newsnight debate on puberty blockers www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/newsnight-puberty-blockers-trans-children-bbc-b1806592.html

If we're all about bodily autonomy for children we should hand over decisions about their vaccinations too I guess? Given my babies' reactions (screechy reactions) to injections they'd all be vaccination-free but that'd be in line with their wishes so all good I suppose!

Children don't have autonomy (of any sort including bodily) because they don't have the capacity to make informed decisions. They make decisions based on what they want right here, right now. Forward thinking is not a key characteristic of a child. That's why they need parents, adults, laws to ensure they are being protected.

We now know the brain is not fully matured til around the ages of 23-25. IIRC that is the age many women detransition isn't it?

Their body, their choice?

Let them smoke too. It's their body to destroy as they see fit, right? As long as someone explains to them what lung cancer, emphysema or heart disease is first, a 12yo should be totally allowed to weigh it all up and make that decision. Autonomy innit. And get themselves covered in tattoos, get married, live on their own, etc.

Pathetic argument from them.

I have completed the survey. Got very excited at the point it asked for my gender identity, ticked "other" as that gave me access to a free text box! As I was explaining my annoyance at the mixing of sex & gender I noticed the next q was about whether my gender was the same as I was assigned at birth (with no free text box) so I went on to splutter that my sex was identified at birth as female, whilst gulping wine and shouting obscenities at the screen! Next stop, the email...

what happened to Keira Bell is awful. Her position relies on pretending someone else's suffering doesn't exist.

Also worth pointing out, tactfully, Mermaids were not allowed to intervene in this case. Not because of any prejudice or bias, but because they had nothing to offer in terms of relevancy to the case or the findings, because what they had was emotions, anecdotes, personal perspectives. Emotions do not transubstantiate an illegal act into being legal.

I think my favourite bit was where SG talks about how children are being denied bodily autonomy. By that rationale, presumably she'd also be absolutely cool about kids of 12 having sex with a 40 year old? Their body, their choice?

am contemplating an angry email to the said prof body who really should not be endorsing this kind of social media post.

I should do this, with links to the judgement, and a pointing out that this was an objective, legal examination of facts and evidence from the Tavistock as the medical experts and their practice.

Mermaids has nothing to do with this: they're parents. They have no medical expertise and no professional brief at all. To be agreeing that this judgement is 'wrong' is questionable - how? In what way? What evidence was missed by the court or what bias or malpractice are you accusing the judge of? Or are you arguing that even though the Tavistock practice has been objectively found outside the law in a number of ways (Transgender trend list these clearly from the judgement) …. it's wrong not to experiment on children?

How? On what grounds? Why is Mermaids with their massive emotional and political involvement, a better judge of this than a court? And what stupid organisation at this point is going for 'lets not safeguard children'?

Will do Aye
Thanks for that link Colour that's just the sort of thing I was looking for. I saw the Newsnight piece and thought Emily Maitlis played it perfectly.

@northender ....

This excellent Telegraph article draws attention to how schools will now have to change teaching diversity, with particular reference to Mermaids, Allsorts etc. This is the link for the MN thread which includes the Telegraph link and article text. It is very thorough. Your professional body should have their attention drawn to it as the article spells out the legal implications of the Mermaids literature. Sorry that is not too clear, but check out the article. x

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4097812-Telegraph-article-on-the-Kiera-Bell-decision

I meant MTF as transmen rather that transwomen and vice versa, obviously! Subsets of existing sex.

northender these days, that situation would really diminish my faith in any organisation. Get stuck in on that survey 😁

I am starting to despair. My professional body (healthcare) now have a LGBTQ etc twitter account. It was launched last weekend and I see the stuff they post as someone I follow (very influential person in the overall organisation) likes or retweets everything. This morning I woke up to a thread about Keira's case and how wrong it is with links to Mermaids. I feel I cannot post what I really want to say, but am contemplating an angry email to the said prof body who really should not be endorsing this kind of social media post. Came home tonight to an email from them asking me to take part in a survey about equality, diversity & inclusion. I will respond........

What all the people involved in this horrific mess need is more feminism. Actual feminism that decouples sex stereotypes from sex.

Instead of all the alluding to a List that imprisons everyone, how refreshing would it be to hear of the professionals involved challenging the sex stereotypes instead of reinforcing them? I get the argument that the focus on stereotypes is a form of coding that explains feelings of sex discomfort. I would always counter that with how much discomfort would exist without the stereotypes? Getting rid of the boxes must surely enhance inclusion rather than trying to impose inclusion based of box switching, which will always cause aggro because of accusations of appropriation.

What a mess. 2 key elements that would have avoided much of the current situation were driven forward (openly and subversively) - challenging sex stereotypes and naming MTF as transwomen instead of transmen and vice versa - and never questioned. Or, rather, the questioning was never heard.

I hope the recent legal cases cause a major rollback and all involved have cause to celebrate what will have been at great emotional cost.

@Kettlingur

They get their "information" from Yaoi anime...

I had no idea what "Yaoi" was so I googled the term. The first result I got was an anime series "Yuri on Ice" which, a total coincidence, I actually watched about three years ago.

How on earth can anyone watch something like the onsen scene in that and not imagine that they are going to have a bit of gay sex immediately afterwards?

And that it is entirely predicated on Victor and Yuri being gay. Or that gay men are attracted to other men with penises (I mean one penis each, not multiple).

I remember listening to a gay man speaking on a youtube video from a lesbian youtuber by the name of Arielle Scarcella (who is usually very gender critical) who, in the context of talking about which genitals arouses him stated quite candidly:-

"If I look at something and my dick doesn't work, then my dick doesn't work!"

I really don't understand why people thinking about this don't get it.

But there again, that's what the Keira Bell case was actually all about. Children and young people really are not competent enough to "get it" and fully understand the consequences of this and so need to be protected until they are competent enough to understand all the implications.

I am glad these children won't have their futures blighted by PBs and CSH, but I'm not happy that boys can do girls' sport just on their say so. It seems like often the girls, and adult women, just accept the transgirls or transwomen into their teams and they all say how lovely they are. But what about the female who loses her place, or the other team who compete against a male body and it's not fair any more, and sometimes not as safe either?

I have heard of examples but it's really hard to know how widespread it is because
a. it gets hidden to avoid trouble
b. people won't say for fear of transphobia etc and
c. in some sports, like rowing or cycling where you tend to be more covered up, you don't always get a good look at your competitors so you can't be sure. And actually
d. some women welcome them - it makes them feel good, and might give their team an advantage.

Singing
Dancing
Dressing up in glam outfits
Adjusting his hair

Is my son not allowed to show an interest in these things AND be a man?

Yes, sleepovers, glitter and trying out clothes, getting into "scrapes",dancing in the kitchen. All good in itself but it isn't what we women spend most of our time doing is it??? I'm sure ftm have similar fantasies about men bonding in entirely different ways to women but possibly they do much the same in RL as women, gossip about their mates, share problems, tell jokes and discuss what happened last weekend and their interests architecture books sport music, state of the nation etc.
Or do I have very non gender conforming friends and family????

'I can't do the girl stuff I have been wanting to do for many years'

Just thinking back to all the girl stuff I did when I was young: loads of bike rides, building dens, playing with cap guns, making things in my father’s workshop (shed), reading adventure books, climbing trees, painting, meccano.... in other words, typical girly stuff.

None of my friends in my twenties did 'girly" things. By then we socialised in mixed sex groups or if we met with old friends (girls as we went to single sex school) we gossiped talked about work and travel and other acquaintances. We discussed relationships if they were problematic. But surely men do these things too??
I remember once having a new friend who wanted to go facecream shopping with me and thinking eowww?? That's what young teens do, go shopping for makeup.

Maybe that is the problem - it is a fantasy about being a girl not a "woman". It is a search for innocence and carefree version of adulthood with no burdens.

What idea of “girly” is being sold that these young transwomen believe they can be doing with young women? Have things changed so much now?

I think some of it is soft porn fantasy (sexy pillow fights) crossed with rom com nonsense. I'm not sure what sort of TV shows this generation are into but the ones I watched in my youth, Friends, Ally McBeal, SATC didn't resemble my life one iota.

What idea of “girly” is being sold that these young transwomen believe they can be doing with young women? Have things changed so much now?

That reddit post sounds very much like believing in a fantasy and being hurt when faced with reality. How is that healthy for anyone?

Here’s to a world where little boys and little girls are free to play with whatever toys capture their interests and feed their imaginations and wear whatever clothes fulfil their needs for comfort and/or creativity, whether those interests and comforts last for just a few weeks or a whole lifetime
🍻

(Although I am glad my eldest no longer wears his Buzz Lightyear ‘space wings‘ 24/7 😂)