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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Keira

999 replies

YouNoob · 01/12/2020 10:25

Live tweets from Belstaffie here:

mobile.twitter.com/Belstaffie/status/1333716720176033793

OP posts:
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33
MissLucyEyelesbarrow · 01/12/2020 21:47

@justanotherneighinparadise

Sorry have I lost the plot here!? In this tweet are Mermaids now doing a reverse ferret on puberty blockers and saying they are harmful? I thought they advocated their use!?
Fuck me. That's a step beyond a mere reverse ferret. It's a gold-plated, top of the range, for the love of god please don't sue us, reverse ferret Grin
RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 21:40

My jaw dropped as I read it and when I got to paragraph 44....well. Paragraphs 58 and 59. Paragraph 60. Paragraph 73. On and on goes the litany of negligence and wilful blindness - tying in with what InvisibleDragon says above about the lack of good faith.

The concluding paragraphs - 134 onwards - are really clear and also devastating.

44. The court asked for statistical material on the number, if any, of young people who had been assessed to be suitable for PBs but who were not prescribed them because the young person was considered not to be Gillick competent to make the decision, whether at GIDS or the Trusts. Ms Morris could not produce any statistics on whether this situation had ever arisen. She suggested that in the main, GIDS would work with the young person to give them further information, discuss the matter further and in some cases wait until they had achieved further maturity. The court gained the strong impression from the evidence and from those submissions that it was extremely unusual for either GIDS or the Trusts to refuse to give PBs on the ground that the young person was not competent to give consent. The approach adopted appears to be to continue giving the child more information and to have more discussions until s/he is considered Gillick competent or is discharged.

It looks very much like there was no such assessment and the default position was to presume competence was at a sufficient level. The lack of monitoring of this strengthens the idea that little or no concern was given to capability on the basis of age/maturity. Its a massive oversight which exposes the service to some pretty big questions.

58. We were told that the defendant did not have any data recording the proportion of those on puberty blockers who progress to cross-sex hormones. We were told that in part this resulted from the fact that some would have progressed to adult services and would not be recorded by the defendant. Ms Swarbrick had carried out an analysis of a random sample of 312 of 1648 files of patients discharged from GIDS from 1st March 2019 to 4th March 2020. Dr Carmichael summarised this as:
“…based on a random sample of those referred to GIDS who had been discharged or had a closing summary from GIDS in 19-20 (analysis B) 16% of patients (49 individuals) had accessed the endocrinology service during their time with GIDS. Of those 16%, 55% (27 individuals) were subsequently approved for or accessed cross-sex hormones during their time with GIDS. This number represents 8.7% of all the patients discharged from GIDS that year. We also know that of the 49 patients who were referred to endocrinology for GnRHa whilst at GIDS, two did not commence GnRHa treatment, and a further five were discharged from GIDS without being referred on to another gender service.”

59. We find it surprising that GIDS did not obtain full data showing the figures and the proportion of those on puberty blockers who remain within GIDS and move on to cross-sex hormones. Although neither Dr Carmichael nor Professor Butler could give the equivalent figures in the United Kingdom to those from the Netherlands, the language used in their witness statements suggests that a similarly high proportion of children and young people in the United Kingdom move from PBs onto CSH.

The impact of Puberty Blockers and their reversibility
60. Both WPATH and the Endocrine Society in their documentation describe PBs as fully reversible. Professor Butler says that “we do not know everything about the blocker and as far as we know it is a safe reversible treatment with a well-established history.” Dr Alvi also referred to the history of the use of PBs as showing that they are fully reversible. However, it is important to note that apart from the Amsterdam study, the history of the use of PBs relied upon in this context is from the treatment of precociouspuberty which is a different condition from GD, and where PBs are used in a very different way.

So far from the position that puberty blockers were fully reversable it looks to the contrary. But worse than that the clinic can't say this either way because they never monitored whether puberty blockers were reversable because they never followed up and checked even though they were telling patients and their parents they were fully reversable.

This means it was impossible for anyone involved to make informed decisions. From clinicians, to parents, to patients.

They were experimenting, but worse than that they weren't actually coming up with any conclusions because the drug use was never monitored for effectiveness or problems later on. Its therefore difficult to argue that these drugs were being used in an experimental way. They were just being administered without thought to consequences down the line to current patients and without thought to future patients.

73. The Evaluation Paper on the Early Intervention Study at GIDS, referred to in para 25 above, gives some (albeit limited) material on the outcome of that study. It summarised a meeting paper presented by Dr Carmichael and Professor Viner in 2014 (but not published in a peer review journal) as follows:

“The reported qualitative data on early outcomes of 44 young people who received early pubertal suppression. It noted that 100% of young people stated that they wished to continue on GnRHa, that 23 (52%) reported an improvement in mood since starting the blocker but that 27% reported a decrease in mood. Noted that there was no overall improvement in mood or psychological wellbeing using standardized psychological measures .” (emphasis added)

So what evidence there was, didn't seem to support the idea that the drug had any meaningful improvement for the patient but given there were side effects, harm was actively being done without benefit.

This isnt even about the capacity of patients to consent. This is into clinical malpractice and ethically dubious conduct and procedure which children have been caught up in. This is significant.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:40

I wonder if Keira is game to try and get the GRA amended to add an annulment option next?

Seeing as she’s currently stuck legally male (as the service spec doc above has reminded me).

Thingybob · 01/12/2020 21:39

You beat me to it Itsallgoingtobefine

Thingybob · 01/12/2020 21:38

I don't know if it's already been mentioned but NHS England have updated GIDS service specification in light of today's judgement. I can't link to it but Mermaids have a link on twitter

McDuffy · 01/12/2020 21:35

Absolutely thrilled for Keira and Mrs A. There was definite kitchen dancing here today Grin
Thank you to all the amazing posters here who break it down and analyse it further for the rest of us. I've learned so much from you all over the past 2+ years and I'm in awe of your knowledge, tenacity and determination to protect women and children.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/12/2020 21:34

GIDS service specifications updated:

twitter.com/SafeSchools_UK/status/1333881586715136000?s=19

(Sorry can't find source of original)

Keira
Keira
BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:34

Keira is an absolute fucking diamond!

I hope Keira is taking the Triggerpod boys up on their offer of an interview. I notice their Posie episode has now become their most viewed interview of all time, so their audience is definitely interested in the topic.

DickKerrLadies · 01/12/2020 21:32

[quote BlackForestCake]Apparently Keira is on Newsnight later up against Susie Green!
twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1333881218346061825[/quote]
Well, looks like I'm putting the kettle on then!

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 01/12/2020 21:32

That's very unusual isn't it for a TRA to appear live, and share a platform with someone they deem transphobic?

yourhairiswinterfire · 01/12/2020 21:31

I think we can all accurately guess what Green is going to come out with...

BlackForestCake · 01/12/2020 21:28

Apparently Keira is on Newsnight later up against Susie Green!
twitter.com/BBCNewsnight/status/1333881218346061825

fastwigglylines · 01/12/2020 21:25

Not a peep in the woke groups I lurk in either. They are talking about boycotting Lush though Hmm

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 01/12/2020 21:22

Funnily enough, on a very BeardyWokeBro website I frequent, which badges itself as super inclusive, there is not even a whisper of this case anywhere...

ListeningQuietly · 01/12/2020 21:22

Providing the drugs to a child in the UK would be illegal - parents who did so would be in trouble
medics would be in mega trouble

taking a child overseas would have to go through the court of protection (as has been established in cases like Charlie Gard)

PurpleHoodie · 01/12/2020 21:20

If a UK doctor residing in say - France or Argentina - were to sell these PB/cross sex drugs, or provide a prescription for issue in a Pharmacist, could an International arrest warrant be issued?

(Idle musing)

PurpleHoodie · 01/12/2020 21:15

I have a question.

In theory or practice, could International arrest warrants be issued against anyone providing puberty blockers and/or cross sex hormones to children (or their families/guardians) where the children hold UK citizenship? (Regardless of where they reside)

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:15

Here’s the time stamp for the beginning of the segment where Moore mentions GIDS:

RedToothBrush · 01/12/2020 21:01

BUT they hinted with talk of experimental procedures that adequate information isnt being given. Therefore does that mean adults can't give informed consent at present too? Given that the 'informed' bit needs adequate accurate information which isn't available? Are they telling adults that long term effects are unclear?

Medical ethics in the uk bar experimental treatment on children in ALL circumstances bar in the most extreme cases if there is no other alternative and all other avenues have been fully persued. To put it another way, only in cases where a condition is otherwise terminal or extremely life limiting in terms of disability. And arguably if you do this on a large scale a duty of care would include proper follow up monitoring and studying of outcomes.

For adults the threshold for allowing experimental treatment isn't as strict. However adults are still subject to informed consent. That includes understanding there is an additional risk to experimental treatment and understanding that it may fail to deliver on what it promises.

Arguably adults who are vulnerable - so have long term poor mental health - are not ideal candidates for experimental drugs. If they are desperate then they may be more liable to make decisions which are not in their own interests. Doctors have to be on the ball and recognise if a patient has unrealistic expectations about an experimental drug and balance that with the possible benefits they may have. You also have the concept of how informed consent only applies if there is no 'undue pressure or influence' being present. That could be a social group, an adult in a position of influence (for example a 17 year old being influenced by a teacher) or social media.

If a patient is demonstrating they have unrealistic expectations and don't take the risk of side effects seriously they are unable to be considered to be making an informed decision and a doctor should take this into consideration.

A doctor is morally bound to do no harm and put the best interests of a patient first.

If its an experimental treatment there is no obligation for doctors to allow a patient onto a trial because the drug/treatment isn't approved and a preferred recommended pathway does not exist. Its purely something at the discretion of a practitioner.

This is where puberty blockers as an option are particularly strange because even though they are experimental and for children they appear to have become a recommended pathway. Which is completely contradictary with ethics and law in this area.

So yes, vulnerable adults and experimental drugs could be an area where yes, an informed consent threshold still may not be being reached.

And yes if you are doing experimental treatment on adults (inc 17 and 18 year olds) again there should be some kind of follow up on outcomes to enable informed consent for new patients and if you aren't doing this, there are a lot of questions about whether you are indeed enabling informed consent. With holding this information or failing to record it, is quite problematic is you are doing so over a prolonged period of time especially if you have no adequate explanation of why you are failing in your duty of care by doing this.

FlibbertyGiblets · 01/12/2020 21:00

A messy business indeed, Suzanne.( from her tweet)

Keira I hope you are okay tonight, it has been a bit of a day for you.

PurpleHoodie · 01/12/2020 21:00
Flowers Marvellous. Just marvellous news.
BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 01/12/2020 21:00

Moore mentions it here somewhere. I listened yesterday, will try and find a time stamp:

m.youtube.com/watch?v=wSVd36xEplY

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 01/12/2020 20:53

I’d love to hear more about that.

PronounssheRa · 01/12/2020 20:52

It seems journalists were prevented from investigating what was going on. Suzanne Moore says it was one of the reasons she left the guardian.

There is still the JR on Safeguarding Concerns at GIDS to come.

Keira
EdgeOfACoin · 01/12/2020 20:42

I wonder what our politicians think about this judgment.

I'm thinking of Lisa Nandy, in particular, with her one trans child constituent. I wonder if she feels this judgment sheds light on this issue. She is always saying we need less heat and more light.

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