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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A THIRD of all convictions for women are for TV licence non payment

81 replies

dianebrewster · 29/11/2020 15:49

I found this totally mind-boggling and totally shocking

"TV licence fee evasion accounts for nearly a third of women's convictions, official figures have revealed, prompting calls for its decriminalisation and warnings that the BBC could be guilty of "indirect gender discrimination".

An increasing proportion of women are being landed with criminal records for non-payment of the fee and are nearly 10 times more likely to be convicted for it than men, according to Ministry of Justice (MoJ) data published on Thursday."

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/26/third-female-convictions-uk-due-tv-licence-fee-evasion-moj-stats/

OP posts:
Childrenofthestones · 29/11/2020 18:55

Its a poll tax. Its disgusting
If you are JK Rowling in a 30 room mansion with an 85" OLED tv in every room or a single mum on benefits living in a bedsit with a 19" JVC you pay the same.
The Detector vans were a load of old bollocks. They were only ever a propaganda tool, proven by the fact that nobody has ever been prosecuted by evidence collected by them.
All prosecutions are either by looking through a window and seeing you watching live tv or even more likely, by conversations on the doorstep and what comes out of your mouth.
And there's the point.
Women have a much lower level in a disagreeability factor and are far more likely to engage and answer questions on the door step whereas men are more likely to either close the door in their face or just tell them to f off.
If you look on YT there is hours of men arguing with Capita bullies on the doorstep but no women, despite women being the majority of prosecutions.

PacificOcean · 29/11/2020 18:54

There's a petition you can sign to support de criminalising it:

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/549628

VicMackey · 29/11/2020 18:53

Disgusting corporation

A THIRD of all convictions for women are for TV licence non payment
sawdustformypony · 29/11/2020 18:50

The blog only shows that lodging fines exists and does not support your claim that the imprisoned women are actually being jailed for other, more serious offenses.

As I mentioned the blog was indeed merely to show lodging exists. Whether you choose to give my account any credence or not, is a matter for you. On the whole, I'm not that bothered. I wrote it as I dislike people being duped. But, the old advice about being careful what you read in newspapers is as true now as in the past. Newspapers don't let the facts get in the way of a good story.

OwlOneAmorFati · 29/11/2020 18:43

I can so completely understand this. I'm a single parent, i have a job now, but when I was broke and raising two kids stuck at home, unable to earn enough to pay for childcare for two, I got by, just, I managed, just and yet that was the bill that used to make me feel ''should I pay this?''

Although to be honest, even now, with teenagers and a full time job, I still resent paying it. We don't have a tv. We have screens. I pay it to stay out of trouble, that's all.

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 18:39

@sawdustformypony

Long time since I used to be a defense solicitor, but in case such as these, the defendants are being sentenced for a more serious matter for which they receive a custodial sentence. At that point the defense solicitor rises to their feet and points out to the magistrates that their client has outstanding fines and given that he or she is now being sent down, could they be real sweethearts and to order to 'lodge' the outstanding fines - meaning they don't have to pay them. Defendant hardly delighted they are being sent down but at least the fines are being wiped off the slate. On paper it looks like they are (also) being sent down for non payment of a TV license.

Here's a blog from a magistrate to show there is such a thing as lodging fines:

artful lodger

NB . Magistrates are not overly fond of sending people to prison - especially women and more than happy for these sentences to be concurrent.

In some cases, maybe, but it's also possible to be imprisoned for non-payment of a fine, although maybe courts have a practice of not doing that. But there have definitely been people jailed both for not paying their council tax after the (civil) court has ordered them to and not paying their TV licence fine. It's not the case that they have always committed other offences.
Thelnebriati · 29/11/2020 18:27

The blog only shows that lodging fines exists and does not support your claim that the imprisoned women are actually being jailed for other, more serious offenses.

''You cannot go to prison for non-payment of your licence fee, but you can be jailed for not paying a fine imposed as punishment for not paying for a licence, and in 2012, 50 people were imprisoned, up from 30 in 2009. Of those, 49 were given a sentence of less than three months; one person was given a sentence of somewhere between three and six months.
www.theguardian.com/society/2014/sep/24/in-court-non-payment-tv-licence-television-desperate-cases

This from '94;
''Although women are 3 per cent of the prison population, they are a third of the jailed licence evaders. Harry Fletcher, from the National Association of Probation Officers, said: 'Often it is the women who have to run household budgets and face the consequences when money runs short. Jail for a woman who has to worry about her children can be devastating.'''
www.independent.co.uk/news/courts-jail-845-for-not-paying-tv-licence-fines-1428836.html

''Tory MP Andrew Bridgen, who has campaigned for reform, said: ‘It is a blatant injustice.'
'It is a regressive tax and there is no relief. If you can’t pay your council tax, you can get relief but not your TV licence. In a large number of cases, they are criminalising the most vulnerable in society for the crime of being poor.’'
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4130060/More-women-men-jailed-TV-licenses.html

MillieVanilla · 29/11/2020 18:23

Grew up in a home often visited by bailiffs- wonderful unintentional training for later in life!

But you can see how others wouldn't be so upfront and would cave.

As for @PlanDeRaccordement I've seen this individual before on here and I'm quite surprised HQ haven't intervened yet. Wind up merchant central.
Upskirting is not a minor crime it's a gross invasion of privacy and sexual assault. It concerns me that a female could be so blasé about it

sawdustformypony · 29/11/2020 18:13

Long time since I used to be a defense solicitor, but in case such as these, the defendants are being sentenced for a more serious matter for which they receive a custodial sentence. At that point the defense solicitor rises to their feet and points out to the magistrates that their client has outstanding fines and given that he or she is now being sent down, could they be real sweethearts and to order to 'lodge' the outstanding fines - meaning they don't have to pay them. Defendant hardly delighted they are being sent down but at least the fines are being wiped off the slate. On paper it looks like they are (also) being sent down for non payment of a TV license.

Here's a blog from a magistrate to show there is such a thing as lodging fines:

artful lodger

NB . Magistrates are not overly fond of sending people to prison - especially women and more than happy for these sentences to be concurrent.

TooManyDogsandChildren · 29/11/2020 17:58

I think this is well known and yes it is mainly a combination of women being caught at home more (and famously the prosecutors don't care that the home may be jointly owned/rented, they just take the name of the woman in front of them and charge them), intimidation and poverty.

I will not watch any BBC channels for this reason and they can't become a subscription service fast enough for me (after which we all know they will just wither away).

Thelnebriati · 29/11/2020 17:51

Women are 10 times more likely to be convicted of non payment than men.
(Paywall)
www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/11/26/third-female-convictions-uk-due-tv-licence-fee-evasion-moj-stats/

TV licence evasion accounts for 30% of all female prosecutions compared to 4% of male prosecutions.
www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2019/07/237240/tv-licence-evasion-women

movingonup20 · 29/11/2020 17:31

A lot of assumptions here. What is doesn't say is the proportion of men to women convicted of this specific crime. I read it as women don't commit more serious crimes (or as many crimes in total) so of the ones they do commit many are for tv licence evasion.

Thelnebriati · 29/11/2020 17:23

Are we talking about the TV licence in France?

Women (in the UK) used to be imprisoned for non payment of the TV licence (and in much higher numbers than men), until women campaigned against it. It was costing the tax payer more each week to keep their kids in care than it would have cost the tax payer to give them all a free TV licence.

Now there is a sliding scale of fines for non payment. and women are still criminalised for non payment. They still cant afford to pay the original licence fee let alone the £1,000 fine.
The answer to poverty is is not to keep criminalising poor women.

PlanDeRaccordement · 29/11/2020 16:59

@RealityNotEssentialism
I’m in France where those crimes are considered to be and are legally defined as minor offences. That’s how we categorise them. I did not mean to cause any offence by using the term “minor crime”.

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 16:58

@LimaFoxtrotCharlie it actually is currently a criminal offence but is being decriminalised. The sentence is a fine though, not a custodial sentence, but if the person cannot pay their fine, they may be imprisoned and there are women in prison for not paying their TV licence.

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 16:55

@PlanDeRaccordement

Did you reallyyyy just call harassment, upskirting, indecent exposure etc "minor crimes"?

Yes because they are not assault, rape, murder. Those are the major crimes. That’s the criminal category they are in.

You what? Everything that isn't rape or murder is a minor crime? You clearly don't have a clue about the legal system at all. Firstly, common assault is actually a fairly minor crime (a summary offence) so it's incorrect to label that as a 'major crime', unless you are talking about more serious offences against the person. Second, there are many many crimes that don't fall into your categories of assault, rape, murder that are indictable only and can only be tried in the Crown Court. Upskirting or voyeurism is actually an 'either way' offence, meaning it can be tried in mags or Crown Court and therefore is not a 'minor crime'. Exposure is also 'either way'.
LimaFoxtrotCharlie · 29/11/2020 16:52

Not a custodial offence

LimaFoxtrotCharlie · 29/11/2020 16:52

@Ereshkigalangcleg

There's no such thing as "indirect gender discrimination" in law. They mean "indirect sex discrimination" under the EA 2010.

But yes, women have always been pursued for TV licence fee fines more and are more likely to receive a custodial sentence for it. This should not be a custodial matter.

It’s not a custodial matter. The penalty for having no TV licence is a fine. Nobody can be sentenced to a community penalty or prison, because it is not a criminal offence.
Stripesnomore · 29/11/2020 16:51

Default, I know I should probably stop paying it. But like many others, have fled DV and have huge anxiety at the thought of someone hammering at the door and trying to get in. The extra anxiety is not worth the 157 quid.

BBC should become an opt in service. So many people don’t watch it anymore.

Aesopfable · 29/11/2020 16:50

@Stripesnomore

Well it is good news that they are decriminalising it. Criminality among women will now fall by a third.
I am sure uber women will make up the difference
ProfessorSlocombe · 29/11/2020 16:50

@Stripesnomore

Well it is good news that they are decriminalising it. Criminality among women will now fall by a third.
Not if it becomes a civil offence that is decided on balance of probabilities rather than reasonable doubt.
Ifailed · 29/11/2020 16:50

It’s not a crime not to pay council tax

Initially, maybe. But you can still be sent to prison for non-payment:

www.gov.uk/council-tax-arrears

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 16:48

I found this quote from an article about council tax:

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Women were disproportionately affected by council tax enforcement, he added, as they are more likely to have council tax bills in their own names. Fleeing domestic violence by moving into a refuge does not remove a woman’s legal obligation to pay council tax on her former home.

Although it's a civil matter if you don't pay your council tax, if you can't pay by the deadline you're given by the court, the council can apply for a committal order and ask for you to be imprisoned. Only in England though. Sigh. This is so horrible, especially the bit where they don't care even if you've had to flee DV and aren't living there. Bastards. Poverty should never be criminalised.

Defaultname · 29/11/2020 16:47

@Stripesnomore

The internet is full of horror stories of the behaviour of tv licence inspectors and their strong arm tactics.

I don’t want live tv or bbc I player but still pay for a tv licence just to avoid the hassle of them turning up.

It should definitely be decriminalised.

Stopped watching live TV a while back. Finally stopped paying the BBC about 2 years ago. Wish I'd done it before. No problems since, touch wood, though there are others online who've had lots.
PlanDeRaccordement · 29/11/2020 16:46

Did you reallyyyy just call harassment, upskirting, indecent exposure etc "minor crimes"?

Yes because they are not assault, rape, murder. Those are the major crimes. That’s the criminal category they are in.