Sunday Times today covering Keira's case

They reckoned children could consent to losing their future sexual function because 'some 12 year olds are having sex anyway, so it is informed consent'. That sounds like a failed child being abused to me, how can anyone involved in a job that's supposed to have the best interests of children at heart say that so casually?

Also 'meh, girls can have their eggs harvested just in case they become infertile'. To rent someone else's womb later on, they meant. Do kids understand everything that that involves, including the high cost?

And if the child changes their mind later on after they've had treatment, it's all the parents fault because 'parental consent', and NOT the fault of healthcare professionals who shouldn't be fucking giving a potentially irreversible 'treatment' to a child if they can't be 100% sure it's the right one. Also not forgetting, when parents have it drummed into them that they can have a trans child or a dead one, of course they're going to go with the former.

I'll be gobsmacked if the judges are fine with all of that. It made me feel sick.

Keeping everything crossed, sending the best of internet stranger wishes to Keira whatever happens. She is supported by so many women.

The 'benefit' of taking these drugs before puberty is complete just isn't there for girls, and it's arguable that it's not there for boys, either, since genital surgery is more difficult if they haven't gone through puberty as two well publicised cases have shown us.

It’s one of those things that the more you hold it up to the light, it’s completely threadbare and massively damaging.

Interview with Keira Bell by Raquel Rosario Sanchez.

womansplaceuk.org/2020/11/30/keira-bell-there-was-nothing-wrong-with-my-body/

The court ruling is expected at 10.30.

I'm ready to dig again.

The bleak reality,the data shows, is that if you are transgender or non-binary in Britain today you will face daily injustice, discrimination, and violence.

Imagine telling children and young people this? Effectively it's saying if you do not conform to stereotypes, you will face daily violence. I mean, it's hyperbole, clearly, but it seems to me to have the whiff of a cautionary tale about it.

If children/young people are being told so relentlessly that they're likely to be murdered, subject to violent attack, etc, they must be living in abject fear. It's horrible.

Backed up, of course, by the bullshit phantom of 'hate incidents' - which as we know could be anything at all, conjured up by anyone at all.

'Far harder to kill a phantom than a reality'

We really need level-headed information out there - the real figures and statistics just don't seem to get a look in, it's all wild stories, memes and urban myth. Evidence-based, that's all we need.

I can't even begin to comprehend Keira losing. How could any court of law say that what happened to her was OK? That it is an acceptable medical practice? It wasn't OK and she is beyond brave to stand up and say so. My admiration for her is boundless.

These adult males ignore the fact that there are no equivalent irreversible changes for girls at puberty.

Hear hear OldCrone.

Fingers and toes crossed.

I am sick of years of reading all these healthy, undrugged, unsurgeried mature adult males advocating for speedy, permanent, potentially physically devastating invasive drug ‘treatments’ (often leading to permanent surgeries) for female children.

Hear, hear. It's horrific. But whereas I think an awful lot of people on the TRA side are acting in bad faith, I think JM truly believes in this shit. He really believes he is on the side of virtue and goodness, and we are all evil bigots wanting to stop children having vital healthcare. That's why he is increasingly coming out with allegations that are wildly intemperate and borderline defamatory - stuff that is completely unprofessional from a barrister. I question the state of his mental health.

I was a late starter. 16. As much as I wasn't in a hurry to start my periods etc as, well, who would be, but I can tell you that being behind all your friends in that way, sucks. You worry something is wrong. You don't want to be the last. The only saving grace of any of it really is that it may suck but at least you are all in it together. If you don't have that its pretty sucky really.

I cant imagine what being left behind this way would feel like for someone who's really really struggling, you would not want to be going through it when all your mates are done.

Absolutely, if would increase the feeling of difference, of not being the same as those of your sex, of isolation from their experience because the drugs are isolating you.

I am sick of years of reading all these healthy, undrugged, unsurgeried mature adult males advocating for speedy, permanent, potentially physically devastating invasive drug ‘treatments’ (often leading to permanent surgeries) for female children.

And the adult males are arguing for them on the basis that the children shouldn't have to go through the irreversible changes of puberty, specifically, for boys, the lowering of the voice and growth of facial hair. These adult males ignore the fact that there are no equivalent irreversible changes for girls at puberty. The 'benefit' of taking these drugs before puberty is complete just isn't there for girls, and it's arguable that it's not there for boys, either, since genital surgery is more difficult if they haven't gone through puberty as two well publicised cases have shown us.

What, I was a very late starter too and concur. I also wonder if it made me more mentally naive too. Had no interest in a lot of the typical teen stuff my peers were into till later on.

Also, 🤞 for Keira.

Does anyone know how James Caspian is getting on with his case? If Keira is successful today, I think there will be a lot more interest in and coverage of his case, as it shows how the research into long term outcomes and detransitioners is being stifled so clearly.

Ugh. I am sick of years of reading all these healthy, undrugged, unsurgeried mature adult males advocating for speedy, permanent, potentially physically devastating invasive drug ‘treatments’ (often leading to permanent surgeries) for female children.

I say ‘treatment’ because actual medical treatments are supposed to make patients feel better and here there doesn’t seem to be evidence that these permanent invasive treatments actually do. The gender identity services themselves say they don’t keep in touch with their patients long term so we just don’t know. Research to find out more is blocked. Desisting and detransitioned people are ignored. They get in the way of the political narrative.

These are physical treatments given to female children and young people on the basis of emotional distress at living in a misogynistic society, or social contagion or a mental health condition, body dysmorphic disorder. Or a mix of those things.

So given this groundswell of distress in children, where is the equally passionate and well resourced advocacy for child and adolescent professional mental health support?

Professional, suportive, talking therapy which does not confirm gender stereotypes is clearly desperately needed, regardless of any adult gender politics around this. (And not just around gender issues- there seems to be a generalised crisis of unmet mental health need in children and young people, as anyone on a parenting board will know well)

It’s really sticking in my throat (having seen this in other contexts) how even in a medical and social public services setting, there can be so little actual care for the welfare of the child being paramount and such great adult self interest being served by putting children under particular pressures, and so little professional structure to help children and take the pressure off them.

Children should never be used for adult purposes, I thought we had that agreed as a society. Adults who love to smash down social and political boundaries and legal norms of consent and evidenced safeguarding norms can argue that out with the other adults. They should go and pick on someone their own size.

Has anyone ever reversed after starting blockers? Could they? I'd imagine especially for boys it would be hard to then become what they would have physically? God knows what it does to female reproductive systems

I was a late starter. 16. As much as I wasn't in a hurry to start my periods etc as, well, who would be, but I can tell you that being behind all your friends in that way, sucks. You worry something is wrong. You don't want to be the last. The only saving grace of any of it really is that it may suck but at least you are all in it together. If you don't have that its pretty sucky really.

I cant imagine what being left behind this way would feel like for someone who's really really struggling, you would not want to be going through it when all your mates are done.

No wonder they keep going.

(I mean didn't go on to take the cross sex hormones.)

Has anyone ever reversed after starting blockers? Could they? I'd imagine especially for boys it would be hard to then become what they would have physically? God knows what it does to female reproductive systems.

Women who took it for early puberty report a lot of long term endocrine issues.

But GIDS say the same as the general NHS page about puberty blockers:

However, we don’t know the full psychological effects of the blocker or whether it alters the course of adolescent brain development.

They don't describe them as fully reversible, only 'physically reversible', because they don't understand all the effects on the adolescent brain.

Jolyon seems to be alone now in describing them as 'fully reversible' now that everyone else is being a bit more cautious and admitting they don't know.

But I guess if gender ideologues like Jolyon block anyone who offers a different world view or evidence that invites them to re-examine their beliefs, then it's not surprising they're not up to speed with how much they're being lied to by those they trust.

It's going to be one hell of a bump for a lot of people when the wheels finally come off this out of control wagon.

Tomorrow, I hope, is one step in the right direction.

Thank you. That makes sense of it. I thought it made no sense that a lawyer would cimmit himself that way.

Stage 2: Physically reversible interventions (hormone blockers)

A child or young person who has already started puberty can be referred to our endocrinologists for possible hormone blocking treatment. Sometimes we might also ask our endocrinologists to help determine whether or not a child has started puberty already.

The blocker is a physically reversible intervention: if the young person stops taking the blocker their body will continue to develop as it was previously. However, we don’t know the full psychological effects of the blocker or whether it alters the course of adolescent brain development.

The blocker allows the young person time to consider their options and to continue to explore their developing gender identity before making decisions about irreversible forms of treatment. We are therefore only able to offer the blocker if the young person continues to meet with us for ongoing psychological exploration and support, as well as attending appointments with our doctors and clinical nurse specialists.

From this page: gids.nhs.uk/puberty-and-physical-intervention

The general NHS page on gender dysphoria, on the other hand, is more cautious and implies a possible divergence of views...

Little is known about the long-term side effects of hormone or puberty blockers in children with gender dysphoria.

Although the Gender Identity Development Service (GIDS) advises this is a physically reversible treatment if stopped, it is not known what the psychological effects may be.

www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/treatment/

The fox killer on twitter is saying that Keira's case is about fully-reversible puberty blockers and not the partially-reversible cross sex hormones that she regrets taking.

WTF are "fully reversible puberty blockers"?

Are they the ones dusted with glitter and sparkles by the gender fairy and, like, TOTALLY reversible, because Mermaids and Stonewall once said so. (Don't think they're actually saying that anymore though, if you look closely).

Is Jolyon in denial that blockers cause permanent changes / damage to the body and that he's been lied to by the trans lobby?

Do you want to tell him or shall I?...

Oh, hang on, he's blocked most of us and has declared he's not listening to middle aged women. He'll just have to keep on making a fool of himself then.