Active discussions

Please or to access all these features

Talk
Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Eton sacks teacher for lecture on 'current radical feminist orthodoxy'

170 replies

stumbledin · 28/11/2020 00:21

I cant make any sense of this story as reported in the Daily Mail, and the version in the Telegraph is behind a paywall.

Quote from DM:

The class was for older students taking the Perspectives module, where they are told to critique topics of public debate.

Eton has been accused of 'prioritising emotional safety over intellectual challenge' after banning the lesson.

'The head master felt that some of the ideas put forward in my lecture – such as the view that men and women differ psychologically and not all of those differences are socially constructed – were too dangerous for the boys to be exposed to.

'I explained to the head master that I wasn't endorsing all the ideas in my lecture, but I wanted the boys to be made aware of a different point of view to the current radical feminist orthodoxy, which insists that there's something fundamentally toxic about masculinity.

'In my lecture, I pointed out that, historically, masculine qualities like strength, courage and tenacity have often been as beneficial to women as they have been to men.'

.
Anyhow, there are so many elements to this, posh school, cant they manage a debate, but then it turns out it isn't a debate but a man saying women (feminists) are being unfair to men.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8991981/Eton-College-SACKS-English-master-producing-lecture-questioned-radical-feminist-orthodoxy.html

The link to the Telegraph article is in the DM one, and today they are saying local MP is urging Eton not to let woke outsiders influence them.

OP posts:
SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun · 29/11/2020 10:25

I agree that the inaccuracies in the presentation should be pointed out and dismantled. Mr Knowland has asked for factual inaccuracies to be pointed out in reply to his pinned comment accompanying the video.

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 10:24

@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun

I think it was supposed to be part of a discussion, yes, not just presented as fact. There is quite a bit of prejudice here about the boys at Eton. They are not all clones.
They aren’t all clones but almost without exception they are set for an extremely privileged life, largely as a result of their school education. The vast majority come from very wealthy families and many from families who also have a lot of other influence - judges, QCs, politicians, diplomats. Unlike the kids from the comp, they are taught that they are special and that they are the elite. The teachers who teach them are nearly all public school educated too. You won’t get an Eton headmaster who grew up working class and made his way to eg Oxford from a comprehensive school because, despite his intelligence, he wouldn’t ‘fit’. It truly is a different world.
SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun · 29/11/2020 10:22

Who is going to put the feminist perspective to these boys? Someone who shouldn’t have to or someone who has no right to?

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 10:18

And as for ‘anyone at all can provide a counter-argument’, I’d prefer not to have two blokes debating whether I should be able to be treated equally just because I didn’t happen to be born with a penis. What the hell experience does a man have of the many things that still make women’s experience in society inferior to that of men’s?

I sometimes agree with points Andrew Doyle (and Douglas Murray) make about woke culture, but neither of them are coming at this from remotely a feminist perspective and I have heard both of them say that we have ‘gone too far’ with equality between the sexes.

The presentation isn’t just a viewpoint. It contains outright lies. It’s not true that gender-roles become more pronounced when society becomes more equal. That’s untrue and is presumably based on comments by Jordan Peterson about Scandinavia where he says that there is still a greater number of females in caring professions. That’s not the same as traditional gender roles being more entrenched. In fact the research has shown considerably more equality in sharing childcare than in other countries. Equality initiatives do work and so does subsidised childcare because women don’t all secretly want to be 1950s housewives but are prevented from doing that by evil feminists.

I don’t think untruths should be told to kids and presented as if they were true. Same with opinions about how gender pay gaps are just due to choice when so many women get less than male counterparts for the same job and women earn less than men even if they don’t have any children.

SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun · 29/11/2020 10:13

I think it was supposed to be part of a discussion, yes, not just presented as fact. There is quite a bit of prejudice here about the boys at Eton. They are not all clones.

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 10:07

@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun

So is feminism a ‘no debate’ issue?

I think there could be a debate with two (not racist) sides about white privilege and some of the aims of the Black Lives Matter movement but many people would call me racist for saying so.

Anyone at all could provide the opposite view. No one should have to but perhaps a feminist would want to have the opportunity to put their points to the next generation.

It seems as though there is no middle ground any more on so many issues. Just the right view and the wrong view depending on each persons own opinions.

Of course it’s not a no debate issue but this isn’t a debate is it? It’s basically a privileged adult male telling a bunch of privileged teenage males that all the arguments women have made to fight for equal rights are actually bollocks and anti-men. That’s not the same as teaching about women’s rights in a balanced way, as there is plenty of disagreement between feminists themselves as to the right way forward.

I mean what if a white teacher thinks BLM is a load of crap and wants to show a long video about how racism doesn’t actually exist and it’s just due to people not working as hard as others or biological intelligence differences? Is that okay to show to white privileged males? No, of course it’s not.

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 10:03

@Cismyfatarse

I think the problem is that these are predominantly white, wealthy, heterosexual young men. They are already inclined to these narrow views. Should you reinforce and entrench those views? And who provides the opposite view? A gay woman? Why should she have to? If the boys were being shown racist propaganda to reinforce their racist views (not saying they are racist, but some will be) would that be OK?

These are not adults. They need to understand these views exist but not have them presented as an argument. Anti Semitic views exist but we don't take children through them in PowerPoint presentations and ask the Jewish community to provide a rebuttal.

Exactly. Talk about different views, yes. But this is a teacher telling them what to think basically. We’d never allow this with racism or disability, so why can we have some dude telling a class of impressionable young boys that feminism oppresses them and women are biologically programmed to carry out traditional roles? It’s so true that they probably already think this stuff anyway. It’s not like they have wonderful female role models to learn from at Eton.
Cismyfatarse · 29/11/2020 09:51

I think the idea of a debate is traditionally between equals. Labour versus Conservative etc.

In a school, teachers are not equal to pupils. They are in a position of power and responsibility (like Doctors) and so have to be cautious. We can and do discuss difficult issues but not ones that simply reinforce the prevailing narrow views of those who already have deeply entrenched prejudices inherited from wealthy and privileged parents.

SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun · 29/11/2020 09:27

So is feminism a ‘no debate’ issue?

I think there could be a debate with two (not racist) sides about white privilege and some of the aims of the Black Lives Matter movement but many people would call me racist for saying so.

Anyone at all could provide the opposite view. No one should have to but perhaps a feminist would want to have the opportunity to put their points to the next generation.

It seems as though there is no middle ground any more on so many issues. Just the right view and the wrong view depending on each persons own opinions.

sydenhamhiller · 29/11/2020 09:16

@Gooseybby

Since when are courage and tenacity masculine traits? Hmm
Exactly! Courage and tenacity got me through 3 births, 1 miscarriage, and raising 3 small children.

🙄

Cismyfatarse · 29/11/2020 09:12

I think the problem is that these are predominantly white, wealthy, heterosexual young men. They are already inclined to these narrow views. Should you reinforce and entrench those views? And who provides the opposite view? A gay woman? Why should she have to? If the boys were being shown racist propaganda to reinforce their racist views (not saying they are racist, but some will be) would that be OK?

These are not adults. They need to understand these views exist but not have them presented as an argument. Anti Semitic views exist but we don't take children through them in PowerPoint presentations and ask the Jewish community to provide a rebuttal.

persistentwoman · 29/11/2020 09:10

Isn't the point that he should be allowed to voice his opinions and children encouraged to discuss and debate? A school that shows the Freddie McConnell pregnancy film to their students is presumably open to discussing the difference between the sexes, sexuality etc?

LiterallyProblematic · 29/11/2020 08:48

Andrew Doyle weighs in on this, and I complete agree with him. It’s important that ideas are explored and children are taught to think critically. Free speech is crucial.

SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun · 29/11/2020 08:25

What would have been an appropriate response from the school

  1. What they did - not show it to the boys, insist it was taken down from the teachers personal website and sack him if not
  1. Not show it to the boys and leave it at that
  1. Show it, ensure there was a balancing video made. Encourage debate. Discuss the issues from all angles.
  1. Show the video without discussion (I don’t think that was ever going to be the plan)
RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 07:51

@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun

He doesn’t say that feminism rubbishes men nor that women are incapable. The main point he is making is that sex is real and not a social construct and that their are differences between the sexes.
He says that gender roles are natural and inherent. You know, the very antithesis to feminism. You shouldn’t show shit like that at a boys school where they will already believe they are superior to girls. It’s deeply offensive to women and dehumanises them.
RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 07:49

@SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun

But what about free speech and debate? Do you genuinely agree that making this video is a sackable offence? This is a part of the cancel culture which is the same culture affecting gender critical people and their job security.

Free speech applies whether you agree with what is being said or not.

I’m pretty certain that this was not the sole reason he was dismissed. There would have been other reasons. Like that Christian dude who said he was fired for accidentally misgendering a trans student and it turned out to be a lot more deliberate than that, including pushing his view that homosexuality was wrong and deliberately using names that students had said they didn’t want to be known by. There will be something besides this video, believe me.

And if it was only this video, I wouldn’t sack him but I don’t think it should be shown to pupils and if I was the headmaster, I would say he couldn’t show it. There really are restrictions on free speech in schools and it’s always been that way.

SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun · 29/11/2020 07:48

He doesn’t say that feminism rubbishes men nor that women are incapable. The main point he is making is that sex is real and not a social construct and that their are differences between the sexes.

SerenadeOfTheSchoolRun · 29/11/2020 07:44

But what about free speech and debate? Do you genuinely agree that making this video is a sackable offence? This is a part of the cancel culture which is the same culture affecting gender critical people and their job security.

Free speech applies whether you agree with what is being said or not.

jojomolo · 29/11/2020 06:18

Tangentially, it really annoys me when people opine about radical feminism when they obviously don't know what it is. Would a quick google kill them. That prating fool, Gad Saad, does this all the time as well. Just look it up!!

MedusasBadHairDay · 29/11/2020 00:36

also be really pissed off if I paid 40k a year for my kid to attend the top school in the country and someone like this was teaching.

You say that, but the parents have specifically chosen to send their boys to Eton, so It's imagine they're actually quite keen in this kind of misogynistic bullshit. The idea of men as being above women is kind of needed if you are going to maintain the old boys network.

Lightsontbut · 29/11/2020 00:28

Since when are courage and tenacity masculine traits?

I needed a shed load of both to birth 2 children

RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 00:05

He sounds awful. Typical MRA bullshit. You can see it from that photo of him in the article too. He looks the type and hates women and is angry that we’re not all chained to the kitchen anymore. I’d also be really pissed off if I paid 40k a year for my kid to attend the top school in the country and someone like this was teaching. In his PowerPoint presentation, he sounds really really thick.

Also, it’s NOT true that traditional sex roles are more pronounced in societies with more equality. In Scandinavia, there is greater female representation in traditionally male jobs like law and politics than in many other countries. Men also do more by way of childcare than they do in this country. This dude has just copied some shit he heard on a Jordan Peterson video and pretended it’s gospel. Idiot and I am glad he got fired for this offensive rubbish.

Original poster
stumbledin · 28/11/2020 23:50

I haven't listed to the video and thought I wouldn't bother. So glad I didn't.

But I think is the problem with how the issue was presented in the Mail article.

At first it look like he was setting out some of the MRA arguements and expected his students to be able to argue against it. But then later on it became clear this was about him using his position to promote his views.

So has little to do with encouraging genuine debate.

But not at all surprised it has been taken up by so many, because as always the women must be in the wrong.

I see JfM are very, very upset. Grin

OP posts:
Cismyfatarse · 28/11/2020 22:21

The video is vile. Really awful shite. I think the anti-woman rhetoric is matched only by the homophobia. And the ridiculous references.....Lions is right up there with clownfish. Oh, and the movie clips.

Women are human beings. So glad this man is no longer able to peddle this shit anywhere but YouTube. And so appalled that people actually think free speech means no accountability for what you say.

RealityNotEssentialism · 28/11/2020 18:05

[quote stumbledin]I was trying to find out any updated info about this, and other than the pupils saying the school is institutionally bullying the teacher not much else.

But, it turns out there was a news story the day before about Eton, which it could be said the school would want to distract people's attention from. www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-55078381[/quote]
Horrible and he’s not the first.