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Original poster

La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

493 replies

ExLLLeader · 27/11/2020 12:24

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

--------

Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
-----
Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
-------
Not had an answer

OP posts:
SophocIestheFox · 29/11/2020 08:35

From that Wail article “the world is moving on”.

What does this mean, in this context? What do they think they mean when they say something this gormless?

The world indeed moves on all the time, but the biological fact that babies are breastfed by women (who might identify as transmen) remains the same.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 08:31

I have to say, a lot of this is not what I recognise in my own LLL group. At all. And indeed some of the women's experiences here are not what I've been aware of either.

Re a TW supplementing with a sn, again, why? Sn are very occasionally used by the mother to support weight gain if other methods aren't working.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 29/11/2020 08:23

Well the group management doesn’t come across as being very bright.

Masssivefuckup · 29/11/2020 05:13

As another aside, I don't think I've seen the use of an "sns" mentioned here (haven't rtft tbf). For those who don't know it's a bottle (of formula or donated milk) that hangs around the neck, with thin wires that are taped to the nipples so that the baby can be supplemented at the breast. It's useful for women because baby is supplemented while at the same time draining any milk that is in the breast (thereby stimulating more production) plus you avoid any confusion from the use of bottles etc, but could also be used by someone who doesn't produce milk at all (including trans women obvs). I'd have thought that this would be much more likely to be recommended for trans women than drugs would..

Masssivefuckup · 29/11/2020 04:42

@AldiAisleofCrap yeah, me too. Sending hugs - bfing problems are the biggest head fuck and some of these comments really don't help. @DidoLamenting - I'm in the UK. Not all GPs will prescribe but lots will. If they won't then they'll send you to see an endocrinologist to sign it off.

As an aside, my biggest problem with LLL is that they discouraged me from supplementing my baby, who had dropped to the 0.4 weight centile, with formula because "someone's got to have the smallest baby (she was 30th centile at birth). The lady who I spoke to also told me that her baby had only regained her birth weight at 8 weeks (😱) which was totally fine according to her. IMO they (or some of their representatives at least) are BFing fanatics with an unhealthy aversion to formula.

DidoLamenting · 29/11/2020 04:22

The first one, where breastfeeding was actively suppressed by the NHS in favour of promoting commercial milk products

Really? When was this?

DidoLamenting · 29/11/2020 04:19

[quote AldiAisleofCrap]**@Joisanofthedales* I'm sorry but the word disgusting comes to mind. The idea of promoting babies drinking a hormone and chemical infused breast milk makes me feel sick.*
I am female and like many thousands of women was prescribed domperidone for low supply due to my health condition. Your comment is incredibly hurtful, my baby thrived from my milk.
The medication used is not the issue here.[/quote]
Are you in the UK?

The NHS doesn't seem hugely enthusiastic about domperidone for that use.

www.nhs.uk/medicines/domperidone/

NiceGerbil · 29/11/2020 03:41

This is a very sensitive topic.

I find it hard to get to grips with the fact that yet again women are having a detailed conversation about the drugs and surgery and this and that when the topic is

Male people breastfeeding babies being welcomed by LLL. who when asked wtf made it clear they had no idea what they actually meant and said go away and stop asking questions.

Why do males need to be able to bf? At all? The answer should be just. Um. What? Why?

There's this wholesale creep of men in general into this area. Reproduction.

Men (in general) saying we're pregnant. Our birth plan.
Stuff about men getting PND. no issues from me about MH issues for men around this being flagged. Call it something else though?!
Male menopause. As per above.
The equating of a male person not being able to get pregnant (obviously) as a fertility issue the same as a woman who has issues conceiving. Even if they can produce sperm.
In this case. I see a route to draw equivalence between women who have issues BF with men who want to.

It's really odd. This desire to frame these very female, and often pretty bloody unpleasant, things as a joint endeavour. When the man isn't having the actual experience at all. We're pregnant? Nope. I'm sure you're a lovely chap but you don't get to claim that experience at all. Isn't having a pregnant partner enough?

Anyway. The way we're always on the back foot. Having to justify why it's different for women to BF than men? It constantly amazes me that we have got to this point.

AldiAisleofCrap · 29/11/2020 03:22

@Joisanofthedales I'm sorry but the word disgusting comes to mind. The idea of promoting babies drinking a hormone and chemical infused breast milk makes me feel sick.
I am female and like many thousands of women was prescribed domperidone for low supply due to my health condition. Your comment is incredibly hurtful, my baby thrived from my milk.
The medication used is not the issue here.

Goannaforanna · 29/11/2020 02:53

@OhHolyJesus

In this article Goanna there are instances of men breastfeeding but also these drugs are mentioned.

"There are also some drugs that occasionally have the side effect of increased prolactin concentration in the body sufficient to cause male lactation, such as the antipsychotic chlorpromazine (marketed under the name Thorazine and Largactil) and the heart medication digoxin (marketed under the name Lanoxin, among other names)."

[[https://qrius.com/can-men-lactate-and-breastfeed-babies-naturally]]/

The drugs named are interesting to google, should you fancy looking them up.

It also mentions teenage boys producing fluid due to a hormone imbalance and hypothyroidism, that's why I mentioned why it can be a symptom of something and should be checked.

There are a number of natural reasons a man might start leaking fluid from his nipples (and also a number of drugs prescribed to induce 'lactation' in men) None of them are pregnancy.

That article is describing situation where men have lactated as a result of drug side effects rather than purposefully. We have information on the safety or not of the medications that might be used to assist with inducing lactation for the purpose of feeding an infant (they are the same ones that females might use). Yes, unexplained lactation from a male or female should be checked (pituitary tumors can also be a cause)....you are 100% correct any lactation in a male will not be associated with pregnancy (how crazy is it that that needs to be written).
SophocIestheFox · 28/11/2020 18:30

It made perfect sense, claire Smile

MsSafina · 28/11/2020 17:31

Firstly, what the hell is "chest feeding?" Maybe the doctors in Auschwitz carrying out their experiments would be interested in all this? I have no happy memories of breast feeding. The first one, where breastfeeding was actively suppressed by the NHS in favour of promoting commercial milk products. The second one when I had mastitis and the third one who was hungry day and night and never satisfied with whatever milk he was getting. Wonder why these men or whoever they think they are think it's worth going through crap like this.

ClaireP20 · 28/11/2020 16:21

A wonderful letter and brilliant points made. Well done OP! I feel so useless while all this is happening..like my eyes have been opened from my insular life as a stay at home mum, and I am waiting for the time I can join demonstrations and actively begin the fight for women's rights. Sorry if that didn't make sense..

RealityNotEssentialism · 28/11/2020 15:45

Seriously shocked at this. This is aimed at validating the feelings of an adult male, not at providing the baby with the best nutrition in life. I can’t think of any situation where someone born male would need to breastfeed, other than to indulge their own belief that they are female.
Personally I am very sceptical as to whether estrogen really causes milk ducts to grow and whether that milk contains the nutrients that female breast milk does. While they may well be able to secrete fluid, is this actually milk? I think that any person who is doing this is not acting in the child’s best interests and should not have care of that baby.

If I adopted a baby and didn’t naturally produce milk, I wouldn’t breastfeed either because it would be more for me than for the baby. Formula is absolutely safe and way better than fluid secreted from a male’s chest. If I was adamant that I had to use breastmilk, I would purchase stuff that had been donated from a lactating woman.

I am just aghast that it’s got this far and nobody is thinking about the fucking child.

NeurotrashWarrior · 28/11/2020 15:44

Basically it's not sustainable feeding that benefits the child and would certainly interfere with establishing bf with the birth mother.

NeurotrashWarrior · 28/11/2020 15:43

Regarding hormones, and I'm sure it had been discussed in the past on another thread, only certain types of birth control pills are recommended for bf women as oestrogen can reduce supply. I'm not sure if there's also contraindications for the child too.

So goodness knows how TW get round that.

You can't have hrt either, topical oestrogen cream if necessary.

(Currently going through monthly dips in supply due to natural hormone cycles.)

tiktok · 28/11/2020 15:21

It’s the one that starts with a call out to @HecatesCats.

tiktok · 28/11/2020 15:19

I’ve reported my last post because of inadvertent misgendering. Sorry about that.

tiktok · 28/11/2020 15:16

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

tiktok · 28/11/2020 15:06

Grumpy, the men you are talking to are fantasists, I think. If your telephone support is getting more than the occasional call, it is a group of fantasists letting each other know they have found a source of talking about it with a nice kind group of women who believe them.

I can’t be 100 per cent sure of this, of course.

But I’ve been round the block with helplines inc bf helplines.

If there was any father in the UK trying to bring in a milk supply with hormones, we’d know about it on a blog or a forum or Twitter.

Talk about this with your supervisor or whoever supports you as a supporter and learn how to tell them to go elsewhere for their kicks.

MichelleofzeResistance · 28/11/2020 13:48

"One of the key principles of breastfeeding support is that “Breastfeeding is for the baby, not the baby for breastfeeding.” This means that in situations where someone who is not a baby’s birth mother wants to breast or bottle feed that baby, it is legitimate and necessary to ask why, as well as what the costs and benefits may be for both mother and baby."

This. Excellent article. Its all so nice and open minded, but the harm creeps in its wake to mothers and to babies. As the article says: so many people participating in the oppression of women, or indeed their own oppression, one virtue signal at a time.

BaseDrops · 28/11/2020 13:46

Also - follow the money. They got government grants. I wonder what the conditions are.

OhHolyJesus · 28/11/2020 13:39

Thanks Base lots to consider and challenge there - will be writing to them next week.

Thanks to the OP for starting this thread and sharing the replies from LLL.

Time to get writing!