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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

493 replies

ExLLLeader · 27/11/2020 12:24

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

--------

Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
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Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
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Not had an answer

OP posts:
RealityNotEssentialism · 29/11/2020 10:47

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gardenbird48 · 29/11/2020 10:47

lascapigliata8.wordpress.com/2018/03/26/analysis-of-study-of-induced-lactation-in-trans-identified-man/?fbclid=IwAR1A8kI6w4DS9r5hcM1yEjfpxWnk12AoL_KcEwoAoM5bz-i3hVWEPaPkjmw

I’m not sure if this link has been shared on this thread already (sorry, I can’t face going back over to check) but it is an analysis from an actual doctor of the study of the male bodied person that is said to have fed an infant for 6 weeks (the issues she points out with the study are so extensive that I would be questioning the qualifications of the doctor who carried it out).
One telling point is that the sex of the baby is not mentioned at all even though it appears that the non surgically transitioned male bodied person has fully male levels of testosterone which would be concerning if it was a female infant.
An interesting read.

Datun · 29/11/2020 10:38

They don’t gather data on how many male born people have used their service (this is one of the biggest issues - there is no recording of the extent of this - not in the NHS or so many places) and implied that objectors may be a bit behind the times hmm

The chilling part of this, and one that is being played out everywhere, is it doesn't matter what they record. They will not be able to record sex accurately. They will only be able to record what sex people identify as.

They could end up with an entire organisation supporting men who want to breastfeed. And, unless they make a stand, they can do fuck all about it.

Once those 'male breastfeeding individuals' gain positions of power and influence, they have no recourse. Mission creep, regulatory capture, call it what you like. We are seeing it everywhere.

gardenbird48 · 29/11/2020 10:34
I’ve skimmed it - it mentions mumsnet a couple of times - a couple of good quotes - (go MN!) and described the protocol to induce ‘lactation’ - birth control hormones and anti nausea drugs (which doesn’t sound great). They don’t gather data on how many male born people have used their service (this is one of the biggest issues - there is no recording of the extent of this - not in the NHS or so many places) and implied that objectors may be a bit behind the times Hmm
OhHolyJesus · 29/11/2020 10:17

I'm going to ask why they would ever record gender identity. If you record sex, you would get 90% females asking for breastfeeding help but in the past and for most branches you wouldn't need to bother as it's women who needs support, not men!

OhHolyJesus · 29/11/2020 10:16

If any of us want to or can I think questions and comments could be redirected to the article. I will do so later.

Though LLL and DM are watching here, it's more public and will hopefully expose some further truth as the DM didn't quite get to the F word...

bellinisurge · 29/11/2020 10:12

They were shit to me about breastfeeding struggles when dd was young. I wonder if they will be shit to transwomen. To get the full breastfeeding experience you need to be treated like a failure within days of childbirth .

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 10:10

Safeguarding is based on a lot of hypothetical situations to try to avoid actual real life situations.

Words and how they operate within the law, matter.

Datun · 29/11/2020 10:02

@HecatesCats

But what would be the motivation massive?
This.

Once the question is asked, the answers, hypothetical or not, must be considered.

Masssivefuckup · 29/11/2020 10:00

@HecatesCats I'm not sure why you're asking me that.

BettyFilous · 29/11/2020 09:47

@ICJump

LLL US, Canada and international have been on this train for a long time.

Im also becoming increasingly worried that the inclusion of trans men isnt making breastfeeding support harder. There is a push to refer to breastfeeding as body feeding. It’s not enought to include trans men but all language must remove the words women and breast incase they are trigged.
Anyone that disagrees is pilloried.

Can’t they just have a prominent button on their website landing page ‘information for chest-feeding transmen’ and retain the universally understood terms on the rest of their pages. Transmen are catered for, but it doesn’t alienate women or confuse second language English speakers.
HecatesCats · 29/11/2020 09:45

But what would be the motivation massive?

Masssivefuckup · 29/11/2020 09:42

@HecatesCats like I said I'm not weighing in on the rights and wrongs but the existence and use of sns (which are becoming quite common ime) seemed relevant to the thread.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 09:41

When you've got self id and non transitioning transwomen, you're effectively saying men will be supported to bf. Using the protocol. I can't see how the original statements in the op would prevent this.

I did read once of a father using sns while his wife was extremely ill post birth. Possibly with a nipple shield. Not sure.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 29/11/2020 09:40

Because. No more questions.

HecatesCats · 29/11/2020 09:37

Why would a transwoman want to breastfeed a baby massive?

Masssivefuckup · 29/11/2020 09:36

@NeurotrashWarrior an sns would alow for the skin to skin bonding aspect of breastfeeding without the risks of medication. They are fiddly AF to use though (I'm not commenting on the rights and wrongs of this btw).

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 09:24

That's not what LLL said though

No it's not. It's called the Newman-goldfarb protocol. Jack Newman is in Canada. Goldfarb was a woman who had a baby that was biologically hers via surrogate. The baby was prem too.

Major cognitive dissonance going on, plus the ideological impact of how Canada treats its women.

Masssivefuckup · 29/11/2020 09:21

This was my experience, definitely. They are obsessed with breastfeeding to the exclusion of all else.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 29/11/2020 09:08

Technically wolves could feed babies - Remus and Romulus and all that. So the league could technically approve this too?

YouJustDoYou · 29/11/2020 09:06

"It will support a trans man who has decided to temporarily halt hormones to enable their sexed body to feed and nourish their baby"

That's not what LLL said though - they said it was for transwomen too! So you tell.me, how the FUCK does a transwoman breast/chest/whatever woke thing they call it feed?!

OhHolyJesus · 29/11/2020 09:02

The first comment in that DM article

"No, just no."

Yep. My sentiments exactly.

Well it's publicity isn't it. More letters for the charity commission.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 09:01

It will support a trans man who has decided to temporarily halt hormones to enable their sexed body to feed and nourish their baby.

To be honest, the primary aim is to facilitate that baby's nutrition from its mother, so all the semantic gymnastics are a bit irrelevant.

NeurotrashWarrior · 29/11/2020 08:58

Recent court order confirms that a trans parent can't claim the title they are identifying as.

So this charity doesn't facilitate males.

HecatesCats · 29/11/2020 08:38

Helen Lloyd, chairman of La Leche League GB: '^I can see it's unsettling for people who grew up thinking very clearly [that] it's mothers who breastfeed and believing there is a very clear divide behind sex and gender.
The world is moving on and we are trying to keep up to date and ensure that there is nobody who needs us and doesn't get the support.' ^

Well yeah, it is mothers who breastfeed (with the exception of a no doubt very small number of transmen who may not refer to themselves as mothers) . How on earth does supporting transwomen to breastfeed babies women have given birth to fit in with La Leche League's mission & philosophy?:

Our Mission is to help mothers worldwide to breastfeed through mother-to-mother support, encouragement, information, and education, and to promote a better understanding of breastfeeding as an important element in the healthy development of the baby and mother.

'Mothering through breastfeeding is the most natural and effective way of understanding and satisfying the needs of the baby.

Alert and active participation by the mother in childbirth is a help in getting breastfeeding off to a good start.

Mother and baby need to be together early and often to establish a satisfying breastfeeding relationship and reliable milk production.

In the early years, the baby has an intense need to be with his mother which is as basic as his need for food.

Ideally the breastfeeding relationship will continue until the baby outgrows the need.'

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