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Original poster

La Leche League will support males (of the male sex) who wish to breastfeed.

493 replies

ExLLLeader · 27/11/2020 12:24

I picked this up on a recent Facebook post and could not quite believe it so made the following complaint/query and it is true. I was a La Leche League Leader for many years and am very upset to see how the organisation has lost its focus on the Mother and baby.

Complaint To The Board of Directors/Trustees

Dear Board members,

I was alarmed to see a post yesterday on the LLLGB Facebook page. The post in celebrating Transgender awareness week. The post links to the this page which states

LLLGB supports everyone who wants to breastfeed or chestfeed in reaching their goals. We do not discriminate based on sex, gender or gender identity.

And
Trans men, trans women and non-binary individuals may choose to breastfeed or chestfeed their babies.

And
Trans women can use a protocol similar to adoptive and other non-gestational mothers and stimulate their milk supply: it is called the Newman-Goldfarb protocol.

I have two issues I wish to complain about and they relate to the idea that males/Transwomen can breastfeed.

LLLGB should not be promoting the idea that males can induce lactation to feed a baby. There is no evidence to say this is safe, only an anecdotal example of a case where a doctor in the US enabled this to happen using off label drugs. The focus of the paper is mainly on the desires of the male bodied person and there is little interest in the impact on the baby and indeed the mother. www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5779241/ . I would hope you have also considered the fetishisation of breastfeeding which does not only apply to men watching women, males lactating is also a paraphilia.

Why would LLLGB of all organisations choose not to discriminate on the basis of sex as it is perfectly entitled to under the equalities act? By saying these two statements there is nothing to stop a male wishing to come to women only meetings. Even I presume, before the baby is born. Im not sure if you would require that the male considered themselves to be a woman by performing gender stereotypes or not. (The male in the study had no surgery so still had a functioning penis.) Does this entitle a male who has breastfed to apply for Leadership?

Yours Sincerely
(ExLLLeader)

--------

Dear (ExLLLeader)
Thank you for taking the time to contact us with your concerns.
Your first concern is that there may be safety concerns relating to inducing lactation via drugs. The protocol used by Trans men is very similar to that used by women wishing to induce lactation. This treatment has an established treatment history. As lay breastfeeding counsellors, LLL Leaders role is to provide up to date and accurate information which individuals can use to inform their discussion with their healthcare provider.
Our groups have discretion to consider the needs of their communities when they decide who can attend. Some will by default be women only, however our support is and must always be open to anyone who needs support and information to breastfeed (which some individuals call chestfeeding). This would mean that a group would need to find a way to balance the needs of members who needed a single sex space, with the needs of an individual who needed chestfeeding support.
Eligibility for La Leche League Leadership is set by LLL International and can be found here: www.llli.org/get-involved/prerequisites/
As an organisation with a robust safeguarding culture, if we had concerns about an individual's motivation for seeking breastfeeding support we would take appropriate action to protect families and babies.
Best wishes (LLL Trustee)
-----
Dear (LLL Trustee)
Thank you for your reply, I have copied my complaint below as I was raising concerns about the male sex – i.e. Transwomen and breastfeeding and you have answered as if my concern is about female sexed i.e. trans men.

Best wishes (ExLLLeader)
_
Dear (ExLLLeader)
My apologies - I used the wrong word there. I should have said the protocol used by transwomen wishing to induce lactation is very similar to that used by women. The rest of my reply is intended to answer your points as raised.
(LLL Trustee)
___
Dear (LLL Trustee)
I am surprised to hear this. Would you therefor support a ‘Cis” man to breastfeed and provide the nutrients for a newborn baby?
-------
Not had an answer

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 21:28

'it can be sorted with some formula' no fucking shit Sherlock.

NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 21:27

Oh come off it.

These men have no mothers sisters aunties friends anyone on the phone?

Who can say what the actual fuck???

A man who is looking after a baby and is what. Stressed or gay? Is at risk of attempting to illegally induce lactation because they can't see a HV???

They need psychological help. These droves of men. Not bf support fgs. And they also need intervention from SS because that's just not a normal thought process in any way whatsoever.

Horehound · 27/11/2020 21:26

I thought chest feeding was about a transman (a woman) breastfeeding their baby.

NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 21:24

I mean unless they were very psychologically unwell.

Because I mean. Huh?

HecatesCats · 27/11/2020 21:24

Doesn't happen

GrumpyHoonMain · 27/11/2020 21:23

@NiceGerbil

Grumpy is that in the UK?

(Aware we get people from a lot of countries now).

Just interested.

Why do these men not bottle feed? I mean despite the doom mongering of some, it's perfectly fine if you can sterilise etc.

I think, and I say this gently, it’s a combination of stress, misinformation, guilt, and a bit of stupidity / naiveity. But it’s so difficult to judge when someone who clearly loves their baby is crying over the phone because their baby is losing weight and they can’t get a health visitor appointment. It can often be sorted by a trained HV / midwife (we have a few volunteers who can go to urgent cases) and some formula - it’s not many cases but they exist and we absolutely need breastfeeding charities to be aware that this is going on so we can intervene at an appropriate point.
NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 21:23

I cannot imagine that many men anywhere really would think

The baby needs feeding
I'm stressed/ bereaved/ gay

Rather than nipping to boots and doing what large numbers of parents in the UK do

I'm going to source illegal hormones from the internet to try and breastfeed...

?

HecatesCats · 27/11/2020 21:21

Yeah sure Grumpy.
Literally no reports of that in the UK.

PearPickingPorky · 27/11/2020 21:21

@NiceGerbil

Anyway we're probably focusing too much on one example (the only one known of though?) and also I'm not sure of the point of a sidetrack into the different strands of feminism over the last 60 years or so.

LLL response says to me.

We wrote what someone told us to write.
We didn't think about it at all.
We're not going to.
So piss off and stop bothering us.

Yes.

It's the equivalent of painting blood over the door frame at passover, hoping that this is enough to keep the angry, threatening mob at bay.

They care more about hate than alienating all the women who are completely dependent upon them for help at the more sensitive time in their lives.

NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 21:21

But why don't they use formula?

I don't understand.

It's a perfectly common normal accepted way to feed a baby :/

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/11/2020 21:20

@S00LA

I should say it’s more common in the USA when babies are adopted from birth ( literally taken from the mother’s arms on the delivery table ) and adoptive mothers are more likely to BF recently or currently.
As in surrogacy. Sad Angry

S00LA, are the reasons for adoption similar over there? If a baby is removed from her mother at birth for child protection reasons, I can see it might be comforting and helpful if the adoptive mother attempts to breastfeed.

GrumpyHoonMain · 27/11/2020 21:19

@PearPickingPorky

Yes. As I said I would never have believed it before I started taking calls.

NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 21:19

Grumpy is that in the UK?

(Aware we get people from a lot of countries now).

Just interested.

Why do these men not bottle feed? I mean despite the doom mongering of some, it's perfectly fine if you can sterilise etc.

PearPickingPorky · 27/11/2020 21:18

@GrumpyHoonMain

I volunteer for another breastfeeding charity and the amount of men using illegal hormone kits to breastfeed (or try to breastfeed) is higher than you think. Sometimes it’s as a result of misinformation or outright lying on the part of the person giving the drugs - these are vulnerable men (widowers / or whose partners have died, stressed gay parents, or fathers who are trying to support their partners etc) who are conned into believing they can nutritionally provide for their babies. Often health visiting services are patchy so we then help support these guys to find them support and provide formula before the kids come to harm.

Before I joined this charity I would have totally believed it would be a trans issue, but it’s not. It’s a practical one and if it helps identify kids at risk of malnutrition I’m all for it

Is this in the UK? 😳
NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 21:17

Anyway we're probably focusing too much on one example (the only one known of though?) and also I'm not sure of the point of a sidetrack into the different strands of feminism over the last 60 years or so.

LLL response says to me.

We wrote what someone told us to write.
We didn't think about it at all.
We're not going to.
So piss off and stop bothering us.

PearPickingPorky · 27/11/2020 21:16

Any attempt to suggest that transwomen should breastfeed babies born to women is contrary to La leche league's mission statement which is to promote breastfeeding for the ' 'healthy development of baby and mother', since there is no evidence whatsoever that chemically induced lactation in male born people is good for babies.

I don't think chemically-induced lactation in males is good for the mother either, as they will be forgoing all that time with the baby suckling and generating future supply and/or have no infant to feed when the breasts are full and need the baby to feed. Which is likely to cause mastitis in the mother, which is quite a serious health issue and causes completely debilitating agony.

But hey, she[compelled speech] said "I got off on it", so that's nice.

GrumpyHoonMain · 27/11/2020 21:16

I volunteer for another breastfeeding charity and the amount of men using illegal hormone kits to breastfeed (or try to breastfeed) is higher than you think. Sometimes it’s as a result of misinformation or outright lying on the part of the person giving the drugs - these are vulnerable men (widowers / or whose partners have died, stressed gay parents, or fathers who are trying to support their partners etc) who are conned into believing they can nutritionally provide for their babies. Often health visiting services are patchy so we then help support these guys to find them support and provide formula before the kids come to harm.

Before I joined this charity I would have totally believed it would be a trans issue, but it’s not. It’s a practical one and if it helps identify kids at risk of malnutrition I’m all for it

NiceGerbil · 27/11/2020 21:15

So given that it always takes a period of time for the milk to come in, after a woman gives birth....

If this person thinks that's unusual and a problem then how the hell do they think the human race has survived?

Seems like the female partner wasn't really on the cards for bf the child ever. Did she not want to? But it seems from the article she did so... It doesn't make sense does it.

Colostrum first then milk. Aok fine and dandy. Not any kind of problem.

tiktok · 27/11/2020 21:11

That case history linked to is as full of holes as a string vest.

Men cannot produce breast milk and they cannot breastfeed.

Not good to indulge these fantasies, which is what LLL is doing.

onedayinthefuture · 27/11/2020 21:09

Oh to have a hosepipe filled with FORMULA. Le Leche league all lined up and I'd pressure wash them all with it.

HecatesCats · 27/11/2020 21:05

@MsSafina

And indeed, the career minded woman would have thought nothing of going back to work and letting a nanny give a bottle to the infant as well as the other care. So let's not be too precious if someone else thinks they can give the teat.
Why should transwomen be allowed to breastfeed babies? Why should La Leche League which promotes breastfeeding for the health and development of women and babies embrace transwomen breastfeeding? Why do transwomen want to breastfeed babies that women have given birth to? Why would women allow them to do that?
S00LA · 27/11/2020 21:05

I should say it’s more common in the USA when babies are adopted from birth ( literally taken from the mother’s arms on the delivery table ) and adoptive mothers are more likely to BF recently or currently.

S00LA · 27/11/2020 20:59

@Gwenhwyfar

"Do women who have adopted a baby induce breast feeding? I have never heard about this."

I have heard of it. There was a Woman's hour interview with a woman who had done it.

This is extremely rare in Uk adoptions. For several reasons

1.legal - babies are not placed for adoption at birth as they are in the US where it’s often a private adoption ( Private adoptions are illegal in the Uk). When babies are placed as new borns they are with foster carers, who of course will not Bf the child, even if they happened to be lactating and feeding their own toddler or child.

This is the case even it’s “ concurrent planning “ - when the family hope to go to adopt the child. They are still fosters carers and have to follow all the rules.

  1. Timescale - The legal adoption won’t go through for months or sometimes even years. It’s only when that is granted that a mother could decide to Bf the child.

Obvously you can’t start inducing lactation and teaching a baby to Bf when it’s 10 or 12 months old, as they will have learned how to suck on an artificial teat.

  1. Induced lactation works best when a woman has BF before or at least if she has been PG. Most ( not all ) women who adopt a baby in the UK will not have Bf before. If you have several biological children, most agencies will not place a NT child under 2 with you.
  1. Time - there are often delays when a child is supposed to be placed - usually weeks and often months. Inducing lactation takes a huge amount of time and preparation, as well as the off label use of drugs which most GPS won’t support.
  1. Difficulty - it’s really really hard for most women to make anything more than a few drops unless they have been Pg and Bf relatively recently . There’s drugs and hours of pumping and supplemental feeding . That’s on top of caring for a distressed and traumatised baby / toddler.

It’s just too much extra stress for everyone. Why would you put yourself and baby through it ?

MsSafina · 27/11/2020 20:56

And indeed, the career minded woman would have thought nothing of going back to work and letting a nanny give a bottle to the infant as well as the other care. So let's not be too precious if someone else thinks they can give the teat.

NeurotrashWarrior · 27/11/2020 20:51

(He's Canadian and otherwise and excellent lactation dr.)