Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Hermes Delivery Driver Sexual Harassment

114 replies

Seatime · 27/11/2020 11:34

I'm furious, my adult daughter received a delivery today from Hermes. The delivery driver said to her 'Sexy Slippers'. My daughter did not want a sexual comment on her clothing from man 20 years older than her. I know it may sound unharmful but it was not, but my daughter felt humiliated, embarrassed and violated. She looked at her slippers afterwards as something dirty. I believe it was his intention to be creepy and shit on her experience as she was visibly happy opening the door, l was on video chat with her. She had really looked forward to the delivery because of lockdown and she had just recovered from covid. Women do not have to go outside these days to be sexually harrased. Has anyone else had sexual harrasment from delivery drivers?

OP posts:
New posts on this thread. Refresh page
EarthSight · 07/12/2020 09:29

Sexy slippers?

I'd ask them to make sure their drivers keep their foot fetish comments to themselves.

Fennelandlovage · 06/12/2020 20:57

Report it, the company will know who delivered her package. He needs to know it’s not ok.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/12/2020 20:47

You are a star! (Even if it doesn't work, you're still a star....)

DrinkFeckArseGirls · 06/12/2020 17:35

www.womentradersdirectory.co.uk/

Try this?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 06/12/2020 13:54

Following the derail: unfortunately stopcocks don;t have anyone available in this area, blast it. Back to the drawing-board, while the tank in the loft continues to leak intermittently.

On the subject of the thread,
If a person cannot see that someone being gratuitously offensive is, well, offensive, he or she can't see it. There is not a lot to be done about that.

xxyzz · 06/12/2020 13:26

Slightly derailing this thread, sorry, but thanks to the poster who suggested stopcocks.uk.

Does anyone know of a female firm of roofers in the London area?

AlbusSeverusMalfoy · 06/12/2020 12:49

Both i and delivery driver are female.

AlbusSeverusMalfoy · 06/12/2020 12:48

I had a female delivery diver tell me she gave my parcel to my neighbour (block of flats, lots of neighbours due to odd lay out) asked which neighbour? She said a fat man. Rude but we have a few people on the large side, I asked what she meant by fat? She replied ... fat like you.
She's lucky I didn't sit on her with my fat arse. And yes I put in a complaint.

C0RA · 06/12/2020 12:14

“I like your hair “ is not the same as “ sexy slippers “.

Especially when said to a young woman on her own door step by a man old enough to be her father who is a total stranger. And when he is from the group who are responsible for 98% of sexual assaults.

Even “ I like your hair “ is inappropriate depending on context. Would you say it to

A police officer who has stopped your car for speeding
An interviewer at a job interview
Your child’s head teacher who you have never met before
A medical consultant when you are in hospital
Your dentist while she’s doing a root treatment on you
A director of the company on your first day in the job
A judge when you are in court as a witness
The pharmacist when you pick up your prescription

No you wouldn’t . It’s the kind of comment you make when you have a personal ( not a business ) relationship with someone.

And it usually said to your peers or someone lower in status than you.

Context is everything.

So “ sexy slippers “ is inappropriate because

  1. It’s not a personal relationship
  1. He is providing a service to her, she is the paying customer
  1. We live in a society where men ( as a class ) sexually harass and assault women ( as a class ).
  1. He’s old enough to be her father
  1. He’s trying to move the interaction from business like to personal. Most women know to be wary of that because if they rebuff it they are “rude “ and if they don’t, they were “ leading him on “ and “sending mixed messages “.

Every single woman reading this thread has been in this situation - a man tries to strike up a conversation she doesn’t want , but she has to got along with it because of fear of how he will react if she chooses not to interact. Many men are rude or aggressive or even threatening of you rebuff them.

And ( in this situation ) they know your name, address and phone number. They probably k ow you are home alone. So we smile or play along for our own safety.

Most decent men who do this job ( or any other where they enter women’s homes ) and are extremely careful of how they behave. Because they understand how threatening it can be for a woman alone / with her children.

Decent, honourable men go out of their way to show they are just there to do a job and will be polite and respectful. Because they are aware of the context.

Leftrightatthelights · 06/12/2020 11:35

It is relevant as most people wouldn’t have that strong a reaction. Therefore the driver would have been unlikely to have said it with any knowledge that it would cause her to be so distraught.

A better analogy is if I said to someone ‘I like your hair’ but I didn’t realise it was a wig as they’d lost all their hair and they were hugely upset by it. When no harm was meant.

It sounds like he made an offhand comment

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 05/12/2020 11:42

The reaction of the victim is not relevant, though. The harassment is what is being discussed.

A parallel might be that some people don't care if they are called fat and ugly, but the fact that some people can rise above gross insult does not excuse the person being gratuitously insulting.

Leftrightatthelights · 05/12/2020 10:10

So she was wearing novelty slippers and he said ‘sexy slippers’. It’s not great to make a personal comment like that but I think ‘humiliated’ and so ‘disgusted’ with her slippers that she can’t wear them suggests something deeper going on here. Being annoyed is a normal reaction, not this.

Seatime · 05/12/2020 09:42

On the education question, that was in response to the onus being put on girls to keep quiet and take it. I think we all need to keep calling out sexism, in person if its safe, to show young boys how to treat women, through role modelling in families and in schools. It's a massive task that needs grassroots and government campaigns. It can be done, it will likely take a few generations, because early childhood messages are very hard to get rid of. I remain optimistic, in sisterhood!

OP posts:
Seatime · 05/12/2020 09:33

Thank you sisters for your anecdotes and comments! I feel really privileged to hear them. This is solidarity and feminism at work. It is really interesting to hear real life stories from women on what life is actually like. As opposed to say an ad campaign for fashion an image of perfection and beauty that we are all supposed to aspire to. As 'NiceGerbil' said harassers can take 'active pleasure in the confused discomfort' of young women. I think this is what went on with the delivery driver. He wanted to intimidate her and take the pleasure out of her delivery. That's what made me so angry, as she just got over covid and needed a treat. Small potatoes to some, but it is on a spectrum of poor attitudes towards women, which can have greater consequences. 3.5 women are being murdered per week, in lockdown by their partners in the UK.

OP posts:
NiceGerbil · 03/12/2020 17:01

It's not about education.

Men have been told for decades at least that we don't like it.

And many of them take active pleasure in the confused discomfort caused especially in older girls and younger women. At my age it's happened so much it's just wallpaper and if course it tails off when you get older. I'd say 13-28 ish was worst for me.

QuentinWinters · 03/12/2020 14:50

Catcalling not cancelling. Grrr

QuentinWinters · 03/12/2020 14:49

"Men need to be educated on ...” yes, but how? By whom? How do you actually change an attitude, make someone think? This is extremely difficult.
Exactly why it should be reported. His company telling him this is not acceptable and why should make him (and those around him) think twice about displaying those attitudes.
The responsible constructor (?) scheme did a lot to reduce wolf whistling/cancelling by builders - women knew they could report it, builders knew it wasn't acceptable and could risk their job.
The underlying attitudes will change over time if the behaviour is made unacceptable. At the moment there is too much acceptance/explaining away, as illustrated by some posters on this thread.

dayoftheclownfish · 03/12/2020 13:26

I am with you on the diagnosis but not necessarily on the solution. “Men need to be educated on ...” yes, but how? By whom? How do you actually change an attitude, make someone think? This is extremely difficult.

I’ll share another anecdote. When I was a teenager, a friend and I (both with short hair) were accosted on public transport by a big burly bloke who said, aggressively, “hey, are you two lesbians?” (So, you could say, sexualised harassment.)

I was very intimidated and torn between either saying nothing or “shut up, idiot” (he clearly wanted a confrontation) but my wise friend just looked at him, smiled and said slowly and calmly “and what if it were so ...?”

He was dumbstruck and you could almost see those grey cells in his brain working. He didn’t know what to say. It was so effective, I still admire her for it.

Seatime · 03/12/2020 12:05

Thank you for sharing 'Patricia Perch', l am so sorry that your daughter experienced that abuse.
There are men who systematically abuse women and girls. There are women and girls who are particularly vulnerable. There are men who think women and girls are sexual objects. It is this attitude which is the problem. There is a spectrum, from sexual innuendo which wears women down, to violent sexual assault. All this gender based harassment needs to be called out and stopped. Men need to learn that women are not sex dolls for their selfish pleasure.

OP posts:
Iamagree · 03/12/2020 12:04

@Seatime

I agree, as said above, it is systematic. Women navigate the world under the male gaze. We are supposed to be attractive, accomodating and to prioritise men's egos at all times. Looking at the wider societal context in which we women live. I have been questioning for the past few years, are women actually allowed to enjoy themselves in society? Such as, going out for a coffee and danish, collecting a parcel, buying a book, dancing on a night out, walking around a shopping area, making myself small on public transport because a bloke is manspreading. These are normal things, that a woman should be able to do without being harassed. ln these contexts l have experienced a range of controls from men, ranging from sexual assault, blocking my path, comments to go elsewhere, the head to toe body scan, accompanied by the look of simultaneous, invitation and threat. I'm a middle aged woman, usually covered from head to foot, not that it matters what lm wearing. I had 3 of these incidents yesterday. This particular thread, is about a young woman, dealing with a man by herself, at her home and the man 20 years her senior crossing a social boundary into sexual innuendo. To address the issue of, if the slippers were novelty ones. I have resisted this as, it doesn't matter what she was wearing. It's not about her. She did and has done nothing wrong, that's the whole point of this argument. If you think his comment was innocent and bants, then you would think that it is OK to say to an older woman at a bus stop who was wearing a colourful scarf, "Sexy scarf". If you think the driver's comment was normal, then you could go into a store and say to a retail assistant, 20 years your junior, who was wearing a Christmas jumper and say "Sexy jumper". It sounds wrong, because it is wrong. The context in which it might be normal may be, if your lover was wearing flannel pyjamas with rudolf heads on, then you might say, "sexy pjs", because you are in the context of an intimate relationship. It suggests sex. You wouldn't say, "Sexy dressing gown" to a child would you? because, it's adult content. That societal barrier that we have to protect each other is removed when lovers agree to consent to that. As with all harassment, it is very simple, it's about consent, the driver broke a social code and entered the intimate realm without her consent. The poster above, 'Current Events' whose 13 year old daughter, with a neurological condition, who was harassed by the postman, that was absolutely disgusting behaviour from him, and is in the category of child abuse. No, l'm not clutching my pearls. The question in the original post was, has anyone been harassed by a delivery man? There is enough evidence on this thread, to have found that there is a pattern of harassment by delivery drivers against women and girls, on their own at their doorsteps. That's what the question sought to prove. Mission accomplished, unfortunately. This is totally unacceptable. We need to speak out about this. Thank you to the people who have shared their stories. Thank you to the supportive voices. I have heard very astute comments, it is a privilege to participate in this debate. Stand up together sisters, to create a world that has dignity, liberation and hope for our daughters and the women we love.
Yes, well said Seatime. I'm old enough and confident enough to stop them dead with a cold stare and ask them "I beg your pardon?" but sadly that's after years of putting up with it as a younger woman. The bloke in the street who looks me up and down and growls says "all right darling" is NOT being friendly. If he was, he'd say hello when I'm with my DH - he's doing it because I'm on my own and he (subconsciously maybe) sees the street as "his" space, or at least as a space he has to be seen to dominate. He's reminding me of that. (Except I stop and ask him why he called me darling when he doesn't know me, and I tell him politely but firmly it's not OK and I'm not his "darling")
PatriciaPerch · 03/12/2020 11:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Seatime · 03/12/2020 11:33

I agree, as said above, it is systematic. Women navigate the world under the male gaze. We are supposed to be attractive, accomodating and to prioritise men's egos at all times. Looking at the wider societal context in which we women live. I have been questioning for the past few years, are women actually allowed to enjoy themselves in society? Such as, going out for a coffee and danish, collecting a parcel, buying a book, dancing on a night out, walking around a shopping area, making myself small on public transport because a bloke is manspreading. These are normal things, that a woman should be able to do without being harassed. ln these contexts l have experienced a range of controls from men, ranging from sexual assault, blocking my path, comments to go elsewhere, the head to toe body scan, accompanied by the look of simultaneous, invitation and threat. I'm a middle aged woman, usually covered from head to foot, not that it matters what lm wearing. I had 3 of these incidents yesterday.
This particular thread, is about a young woman, dealing with a man by herself, at her home and the man 20 years her senior crossing a social boundary into sexual innuendo.
To address the issue of, if the slippers were novelty ones. I have resisted this as, it doesn't matter what she was wearing. It's not about her. She did and has done nothing wrong, that's the whole point of this argument.
If you think his comment was innocent and bants, then you would think that it is OK to say to an older woman at a bus stop who was wearing a colourful scarf, "Sexy scarf". If you think the driver's comment was normal, then you could go into a store and say to a retail assistant, 20 years your junior, who was wearing a Christmas jumper and say "Sexy jumper". It sounds wrong, because it is wrong. The context in which it might be normal may be, if your lover was wearing flannel pyjamas with rudolf heads on, then you might say, "sexy pjs", because you are in the context of an intimate relationship. It suggests sex. You wouldn't say, "Sexy dressing gown" to a child would you? because, it's adult content.
That societal barrier that we have to protect each other is removed when lovers agree to consent to that. As with all harassment, it is very simple, it's about consent, the driver broke a social code and entered the intimate realm without her consent.
The poster above, 'Current Events' whose 13 year old daughter, with a neurological condition, who was harassed by the postman, that was absolutely disgusting behaviour from him, and is in the category of child abuse. No, l'm not clutching my pearls.
The question in the original post was, has anyone been harassed by a delivery man? There is enough evidence on this thread, to have found that there is a pattern of harassment by delivery drivers against women and girls, on their own at their doorsteps. That's what the question sought to prove. Mission accomplished, unfortunately. This is totally unacceptable. We need to speak out about this. Thank you to the people who have shared their stories. Thank you to the supportive voices. I have heard very astute comments, it is a privilege to participate in this debate. Stand up together sisters, to create a world that has dignity, liberation and hope for our daughters and the women we love.

OP posts:
dayoftheclownfish · 03/12/2020 10:34

Quick point about whether the doorstep is private or public: it sort of is both - which is why courteous and respectful behaviour is even more important! You're coming to someone's home, after all ... but maybe because it's this in-between place, it is particularly open to human interactions going very wrong.

As for existing in public space, NAMALT and so on, and I have plenty of perfectly pleasant interactions with the opposite sex, just on a human level, but there is that reservoir of male entitlement that means some men, in some contexts, feel they can impress on a woman that she is only allowed to share that space because of male benevolence.

That's why I find the accounts of transmen very interesting, because they often report on how different it is to navigate public space if you are perceived as male. As a woman, being relatively tall, I think, also helps. And there must be other factors that come in, such as whether you're in a wealthy or poor area, how ethnically and racially mixed the environment is etc., etc.

QuentinWinters · 03/12/2020 10:04

It depends what the slippers look like as it sounds like he was being sarcastic. Large or cartoon slippers are not sexy and that’s the point, they are instead funny.
He doesn't know her, its her home, he has no business at all saying anything personal to her, whether or not it's a "joke".
Referring to the sexiness of the slippers is highly inappropriate. Why should his opinion of them being sexy (or not) be something he shares?
It is harassment, he shouldn't be taking the piss out of customers. I would complain, sod this "ooooh, feeling violated is worrying....". He was inappropriate and she does feel like that, he needs to be told to consider the impact of his "jokes"

3inthefuckingmorning · 03/12/2020 09:56

Sounds like he was taking the piss out of her to me. Which needs a complaint, but I don't think she needs to report it as sexual harassment. How old is your daughter?