Gay men's magazine bullied into grovelling

jj, it is inappropriate to talk about strap ons with a class of teenagers for the same reason that it would be inappropriate to talk about fleshlights or gimp suits or how some people get off by being whipped or treated like a dog or a baby. Not because of homophobia but because a class of 15 year olds do not need to know about these things.
Chances are, most of them already have a good idea that these things exist (and I loathe the insistence you get on some threads that if your son is over the age of about 10 then you're deluding yourself if you don't think he's regularly watching hardcore porn but the fact remains that most will have seen/heard/read about that stuff at some point).
What they need to have emphasized is the importance of consent and respect, how what they might have seen in porn has little basis in how a mutually respectful relationship- or even one off sexual experience- has little grounding in reality. Give them the facts about STIs and contraception. Let them know it'ss important whether they're in a heterosexual or homosexual relationship. Tell them that sex is not the be all and end all and that they aren't abnormal if they don't want to have it yet, or at all.

Wave, you sick puppy 😮

Did someone actually post a link on vibrators and used that as evidence for the use of strap-ons?

This just took the discussion to a new low. The lack of understanding of women is unbelievable. And for the record, I do not want vibrators as a part of the Sex-Ed either.

Damn , got all excited by diode talk,,.it was the basis one of my interview questions

Lots of things exist.
Where do you draw the line on which things children should be told about and instructed how to do safely?
Some people like being tied up? Shall we add knot tying to sex education?
Why do children need to know about all of these things that exist?
Why cant they learn what they like organically together when they're ready to explore different aspects of their sexuality, after they have been taught about consent, and how to create safe environments from a sexual health pov and a protecting their own boundaries pov.

Many people are really surprised that children would need to be taught what to do, most of think that isn't the problem, the problem is making sure they protect themselves mentally and physically.

That's really the only necessity for 'sex Ed' in schools (I'd include in 'protecting mentally' consent and rejection of homophobia and guilt for fully consensual sex)

Covering the details of all varieties of sexual practice is about as necessary as teaching kids every possible sport or type of dancing.

Can we please discuss diodes instead? Or cake?

And no, this plea is not evidence I am uncomfortable with "LGB sexualities". I'm umcomfortable with the phallocentric fetishisation of lesbians, the perpetual attempts to conflate lesbians with gay and bisexual men as if women can't have unique needs of their own, and being lectured on female sexuality by people who think the clitoris is a Greek island and learnt about lesbians from a 70s porn video with strap-ons. That's what I'm uncomfortable with.

*are essential to

I do remember my mum being all "think of the children!" when she found out I was gay in my teens. Massive homophobia, and I was told all lesbians were murderers, paedophiles AND HAD TO USE FAKE PENISES TO HAVE SEX.

That's the only other time I've been told that strap ons ate essential to the lesbian experience tbf - by a hugely uninformed homophobe.

They're certainly not diodes.

I meant to type not all sex toys are dildos.

[quote jj1968]"I don't care who uses strap-ons. I do deeply care about lesbian teenagers hearing that strap-ons should be a part of their sex life. I also would prefer it if male teenagers weren't encouraged to think that bollocks, as lesbians get fetishised enough by phallocentric men."

I haven't once suggested that RSE classes tell anyone that anything 'should' be part of their sex lives. Simply telling someone something exists and this is a way to do it safely is not telling people they should do it, anymore more than telliung young people about piv sex is telling young LGB people they have to do it.

There's a large study here btw showing that 75% of lesbians use toys: www.researchgate.net/publication/51701237_Prevalence_and_Characteristics_of_Vibrator_Use_among_Women_who_have_Sex_with_Women[/quote]
A vibrator is not a strap on.

Not all sex toys are diodes, despite your male teenage porn experience.

Its Sunday afternoon now.

The question is however, do you think children need to be introduced to a vibrator in school?

I, along with many other women both lesbian and Heterosexual have used a vibrator, as it stimulates the clit, which is a bundle of nerves that are the main pleasure centre for most women and very much external (no penetration needed), I have never used and have no intention of ever using a dildo or any non-organic penetration device.

I think you would find, if you actually spoke to women or had any actual female experience that I am very much in the majority there.

Conflating vibrator use with strap-on use... whatever next!

I'm dead. I'm absolutely dead.

No, to a teenager, covering something in lessons normalises it.

What did you Google to find that study, do you mind me asking?

It's from 2011 and it's about use of vibrators not strap ons.

"I don't care who uses strap-ons. I do deeply care about lesbian teenagers hearing that strap-ons should be a part of their sex life. I also would prefer it if male teenagers weren't encouraged to think that bollocks, as lesbians get fetishised enough by phallocentric men."

I haven't once suggested that RSE classes tell anyone that anything 'should' be part of their sex lives. Simply telling someone something exists and this is a way to do it safely is not telling people they should do it, anymore more than telliung young people about piv sex is telling young LGB people they have to do it.

There's a large study here btw showing that 75% of lesbians use toys: www.researchgate.net/publication/51701237_Prevalence_and_Characteristics_of_Vibrator_Use_among_Women_who_have_Sex_with_Women

I guess the only reason that trans rights attacks women's rights is if transrights want women's rights rather than their own rights. I don't know why they want women's rights not transrights but there you go.

MadBadDaddy:

An interesting point made during IDEVAW was that if "sex based oppression" is biological rather than social (thereby excluding trans women, which was the point trying to be made), then there is no possible solution to it, which does seem like GC painting itself into a corner, TBH,

This is misunderstanding what sex-based oppression means. The oppression itself is not biological, but the variable which is used to decide who will be targeted by it is biological.

Sex can be brought into various scenarios as the explanatory reason for some discriminatory treatment when sex is actually completely irrelevant in the specific context. That is the definition of sex discrimination.

Also, a whole bundle of inaccurate stereotypes can be attached to biological sex and then those stereotypes are used as an explanation for the exclusion of women in the past from certain occupations and so on.

MadBadDaddy:

As for 'defending women's sex-based rights against sex based oppression' you'd have to explain how they are attacked by trans people's rights.
From what I understand, by using the word 'sex' and not 'gender' they implicitly put themselves in opposition to trans rights so are designed to exclude trans women, so yes that would be problematic.

I think you answer the question in your first sentence with your second sentence. If we cannot mention biological sex then we cannot mention sexism and then we cannot fight against sex-based oppression and then feminism will be toothless. Ultimately we cannot collect data on the basis of sex and we cannot organise politically to work for the issues female-bodied people share.

The initial subjugation of women, as a class, was not based on gender identity but on biological sex, especially the two major differences between male and female human beings: Only women can gestate a child and women, on average, are smaller, slower and weaker than men.

Those differences explain why women ended up in an inferior position. Repeated pregnancies, lactation and so on kept women away from the public areas where power was doled out and those things, combined with the smaller bodies, meant that women were less able to defend themselves against both men from other tribes who might have wanted access to their reproductive systems and perhaps even the men from their own tribes.

The oppression of women has in all societies been based on sex, not gender identity. Misogynistic tenets of the three major Abrahamic religions are sex-based, for instance, and all the discriminatory laws of the past were sex-based. Women were not allowed to vote on the basis of gender identity but on the basis of sex. (Note that it is really 'perceived' sex which matters there, i.e., what others assume someone's sex is, so in that sense trans women would also be affected by sex-based oppression (and obviously nonbinary female-bodied people).)

Sex discrimination in the labor market is because only female-bodied people can get pregnant. Some bigotry is based on gender stereotypes, true, but the underlying reason for the discriminatory outcomes is sex-based.

Sexual harassment and sexual assaults are overwhelmingly directed at those whom the harasser or assaulter regards as female, and it is rather rare for female-bodied people to be the ones who harass or sexually assault.

It seems that among the woke we are not allowed to have a name for the group which is likely to be subjected to sexism etc., because naming that group is transphobic. This is a terrible framing of the situation because it implies that fighting against sex-based oppression is a transphobic act.

And some people have suggested that saying x, y or z is common or normal may put pressure on children. Rather than cover8ng "common" sexual practises, we would like education to focus on being able to say no, only doing things you are totally comfortable with , with no expectation that you are abnormal if you don't feel comfortable with things other people think are normal. This is pretty similar across any type of relationship.

This!

I don't care who uses strap-ons. I do deeply care about lesbian teenagers hearing that strap-ons should be a part of their sex life. I also would prefer it if male teenagers weren't encouraged to think that bollocks, as lesbians get fetishised enough by phallocentric men.