Gay men's magazine bullied into grovelling

That transphobia definition should get maximum publicity. Such a long rant with only a few lines on actual hate speech and acts. Most of it explains why women's rights are transphobic and shouldn't exist.

In general, it seems that anything but the most abject obedience and silence is transphobia.

No wonder that trans activists allow no debate at all, because something like this would be torn apart in a real debate.

I think this will hurt the movement. When everything is transphobic, calling someone a transphobe loses all meaning and doesn't stop anyone.

No-one seems to have any problems with the mechanics of straight sex being discussed after all.

I am heterosexual, but reading this thread makes me wish that all adult males disappeared into some bunker and knocked themselves out with their anal sex, pornography, sex toys and strap ons. This actually makes me so upset.

I want to teach my children (male and female) about sex as a part of a loving and respectful relationship where boundaries are respected. I don’t care about what nature of relationship that is.

We are talking about RSE in schools?

Who is supplying minors with sex toys and paraphernalia which they need to be taught to use safely?

Plus strap ons are not just for LGBT. Or is it fine to bring up strap ons if it’s L, or G with T but not when it’s a heterosexual couple where the penis one has reasons for requiring to wield a strap on, or indeed wishes to receive one?

I didn't learn about sex toys at school? Why the fuck do you need to learn about that at school?!

Yes, yet another sunlight shedding thread.

"Sadly some people will never respect the ethos and values of the spaces they choose to occupy."

Ain't that just the truth jj1968.

And MBD, your position smacks of desperation if you're seriously trying to argue that LGB Alliance are homophobic.

Maybe reading too much Pink News has somewhat distorted your view as to what homophobia is?

It sounds to me like some people don't really want RSE education to be LGBT inclusive.

WeAreFairCop who recently promoted a hashtag #SayYesToHate

There's a difference between hate crimes and hate incidents.

You want to live in a world where you have a record for thinking something someone disagrees with? If I think you're being quite hateful here on this forum, you'd be okay with me reporting you to the police, no justification from me needed other than you've hurt my feelings. You'd be happy that your future employees will see you have a record of hate? No context, just that you're guilty of a hate 'incident'?

The only people 'hate incidents' benefit are narcissists and abusive controllers.

This is a contentious issue, and it’s very hard to square opposing positions when there is such a fundamental disagreement over the terms of the debate. We’re convinced that the only way forward is through civil and constructive debate. We do not want Mumsnet to be a place that feels inherently hostile to any group, be that trans people, gender-critical feminists, or anyone else.

Yet when Boyz magazine said, about the LGB Alliance, “let’s hear them out” the civil and constructive debate was quickly shut down wasn’t it?

Where to start. I mean, really, where to start.

I’m shaking my head here, because this is so ridiculous.

Actually, now I’m just laughing because the desperate flailing is just so absurd.

I think from looking at this thread that there is a general problem with men and the boundaries of women. They seem to think these boundaries to anything from silly (trans women in prisons) to elastic (woman can speak, but only if they do not centre biological woman) to finally a certain boundary (women should not be forced to have sex with anyone or pushed into a type of sex they do not want).

Although I am relieved that certain posters find that the last boundary is obvious, my concern is that some men might not (rapists) and some might think that it is elastic, I.e. it is not a problem to try to convince a woman as long as violence isn’t involved.

I find it a very slippery slope when you start to ignore boundaries. I wonder if some men feel good about themselves that there are at least some boundaries they respect whilst claiming that other men who respect even less boundaries are “bad apples” or “outliers”?

Jj1969
"The lack of awareness of what this looks like from the outside is astonishing sometimes."
Followed by..
"I think young people should be taught about all kinds of LGBT sex, including how to hygienically use straps ons"
Irony alert.
Jesus christ.

This is a contentious issue, and it’s very hard to square opposing positions when there is such a fundamental disagreement over the terms of the debate. We’re convinced that the only way forward is through civil and constructive debate. We do not want Mumsnet to be a place that feels inherently hostile to any group, be that trans people, gender-critical feminists, or anyone else.

Yes, consent, and male (and in fact all) sexual violence/coercion, should absolutely be discussed in RSE. I imagine sadly there would be similar levels of women reporting the same with PIV sex, which also should be made clear

Yes, males, of all ages, respecting the boundaries of women and girls is a constant battle jj. Maybe with this bold new strategy to teach this formally to teenage boys they won’t reach their 20s, 30s, 40, or even their 50s thinking those boundaries are worthless.

The "insinuation" is that LGBA, and other GC groups, are doing the Pricks' work for them, often gratis. It can be observed that there is an alignment in values and agenda, which leads away from individual freedoms and community, and towards authoritarianism.

If there was 'evidence' then it wouldn't be an insinuation.

LGBA do have links to known homophobic individuals and organisations, such as WeAreFairCop who recently promoted a hashtag #SayYesToHate. There was a thread on MN earlier this year unironically arguing the merits of Breitbart as sharing values worthy of consideration in the common 'GC' cause.

Strange bedfellows, all in the name of what, exactly?

Male genitals can cause physical damage to men and women to the point of life changing injuries. It’s quite difficult to do that with a fanny. So I think it’s quite important to be very clear and specific about the sex of the people who are putting bits of themselves into someone else and the sex of the people receiving. How else can you give clear facts on practice and risk?

@NotBadConsidering - yes! Quacks and waddles are very telling...

Yes, these types of stats jj1968

When asked about their most recent occasion of anal intercourse, similar proportions reported that their male partners had initiated the behavior (68%). A considerable proportion of women (25%) told of having been forced, without their consent, into having anal intercourse on at least one occasion.

I absolutely agree on your last point. I think young people should be taught about all kinds of LGBT sex, including how to hygienically use straps ons etc.

What on earth are you on about?

Simple. With facts about what it entails, stats about how frequently grown ups of all sexualities - same and opposite SEX attracted people - practise it, and with clear instructions to all boys and young men that it is not something they should just expect from a partner - male or female - and strong advice to all girls and young women that it is not a standard part of sex and they should not be pressured into doing it.

I think they should be taught that they shouldn't be pressured into doing anything at all, I don't think it's paticularly helpful to establish a hierarchy.

According to this review 19-32% of women reported having anal sex in the previous year: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5588879/

Is that the kind of statistic you mean?

Do you not think that LGBT inclusive RSE should include details of how a lot of gay and bisexual men have sex? Should kids only be taught the mechanics of straight kids?

When I was at school I knew that gay men had anal sex, I also knew that some heterosexual adults had anal sex. In addition I was also taught about the importance of wearing a condom during anal sex because of the higher risk of tissue tearing.

Somehow I was able to gain this knowledge without having anal sex totally normalised as something that everyone does, and constant 'education' about anal, fisting, 'docking' (or whatever it is called) etc.

Also, it's strange isn't it how 'LGBT inclusive sex' basically means male gay sex, or even male heterosexual sex? Lots of focus on which holes you can stick dicks or fists into, not much focus on how two girls, sorry two people without a prostate can find pleasure with each other.