International day for the elimination of violence against women

A fair few times I’ve seen couples screaming at each other outside bars and getting close to physical violence, and you never know which two couples are going to be the two out of many million who go home and have an argument which ends with a homicide. It’s not my intention to sound dismissive, I honestly don’t know how I can reach violent men. People will take drugs, start fights and do many other things which aren’t legal so I’m not sure this is something that legislation can fix. Higher penalties might help, but honestly in the heat of the moment is it really going to even register.

Thank you for the article gardenbird.

Pleased to see they put the actual stats in there. I'm so sick of seeing lies with no stats to back them up being spread in the media, so that was refreshing.

And even the nice good men who get all this. They don't actually do anything do they. No offence to PP. or my DH. But it's lip service.

Quite. I've heard it from lovely men in my own family, DBs, DF and male friends. My DF actually said "but that's nothing to do with me" (and so is not interested.) It wasn't until I pointed out the impact on me and his GDs that suddenly he was livid and writing to his MP - and that's the property thing at play.

Men don't need to care about stuff affecting women because it isn't a problem for them. That gets left to the PA class of human.

Thanks for sharing. That is a good article.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8997413/Event-dedicated-stopping-violence-against-women-hijacked-trendy-campaigns.html

A good article from the dm- they are getting busy :-))

I'll admit though that this is a bit of a blind spot for me as I've never really wanted children - quite possibly because I hated my office job until changing career around 30 and have only really had a few years of not being stressed every single day. Most of my mates have kids but I've never experienced the daily reality aside from looking after my godson and nieces who are all spectacularly well behaved.

Indeed it is only a year, but I wonder whether this then sets the woman up as 'the carer', who then goes on to continue doing all the childcare at the expense of her job. For whatever reasons it seems to be the point at which I've seen many women I know go from being extremely career focused to never really getting back on that train.

My sister was the only woman in her team for years (high tech defence related job) but she now only works three days a week and has no intention of returning full time. But maybe she's not a good example as she seems perfectly happy and they quite honestly are rolling in money anyway.

And then pensions etc.

The whole system is set up in a certain way.

The idea that it's just maternity that fucks up women's careers is simplistic.

Not least because we're the only ones who can do it... Men want babies too. If all the women said no babies because of all this the men would not be keen. That is often overlooked.

You are right that the default of childcare/ childcare costs falling to women is an issue.

What is also an issue though is that for women working/ or not working is not a choice but a financial decision but based on often wonky sums.

Also. Many men/ women want to be around for their kids esp when young.

So we have people doing stuff they don't want to when a more flexible approach would mean both men and women could balance their lives better.

IME there are a load of men who appreciate flexible working and do pick ups and dentist and what not. But another load who stay late on purpose to avoid bathtime etc.

Point is they choose. I've not worked with any women who had that choice in reality.

As a woman I would say that your perception is not accurate.

Where we advance in some ways we get pushed back in others.

In my industry observing for years. Men resent female managers. Etc.

Maternity leave is a year. I know plenty of men who have taken a sabbatical. No impact on career, if anything applauded.

Probably not the thread for it.

I am probably less acutely aware of the things many women experience in their daily lives, but I think that the world is perhaps increasingly becoming one where women can 'compete' with men more than they could in our great grandfathers' era, because battles are now fought with technology/information etc. There is no doubt a long way to go, but a woman can manage a man at work and effectively be his 'superior' in a way that I think would have raised eyebrows a few generations ago. Some men might not like this of course, but when the job pays the bills/facilitates one's life, and your female boss is the one who you need to not piss off to keep this job....well, many men will know when to pick their battles I think.

I still think maternity is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome in allowing women to truly become men's peers as honestly this seems to be the point where so many women 'slip behind' or have to 'choose' between their job and their child.

There was someone - I think Bea Campbell - who said it was as those the most women could hope for is that when there were good times men would allow us a few small tit bits from the table, but otherwise there was no time or consideration for us.

So in the end I suppose after that late night chat

I come to understand that it really is all about the men.

They are having their hierarchical infights and what have you whether they want to our not.

I've seen it at work. A lot. I find it baffling and weird. Proper dick swinging.

And of course women aren't even near the bottom of that hierarchy.

So if the men, at least most of them, are busy struggling with this hierarchy and it's really important to them. It's no fucking wonder that women struggle to get voices heard.

Other movements have men in them. Men can get that. Gay men. Black men. Disabled men. Should be allowed into this hierarchy. To fight for their place as an equal man.

So many men say I didn't give a fuck about women or girls (short version) until I had a daughter.

So this is going to be an eternal fight just to stand still, really, for women isn't it?

Our rights are being rolled back all over the place with little pause from the lawmakers.

Our position as the ones who bear the brunt of it when things go to shit (household, local, national, global level disasters) is taken for granted.

And even the nice good men who get all this. They don't actually do anything do they. No offence to PP. or my DH. But it's lip service.

Men who say hello I'm a feminist are usually best avoided...

So we just have to keep fighting. I'm up for that I think.

So there’s a chance the first time these ding-dongs realise what a sour note the letter AND the date it landed rang will be when people spot them in the street? ‘OI COLEMAN/P’LOMA! ARE HAVIN’ A LAUGH OR DO YOU JUST HATE WIMMIN??’

re. the letter to the Indenpendent Olivia Coleman etc.. They seem to have gone all groiniad, and comments that were previously shown are now saying pending, and a friend who posted a comment in reasonable language has had hers deleted, although it was okay on the first day.

So not just publishing a stupid letter and then censor those who point out its faults.

Free speech does not exist for all.

And have was meant to be you have

With age I have become convinced that violence is almost integral to the male experience, even if in a subliminal way

I think many men are sexist because ultimately they don't feel 'threatened' enough by women. In the same way,

With these two sentences and have described the basis of the patriarchy.

I think it's only been by reading these boards that I understood the shocking basis of women's second class status throughout the world is because men are physically stronger than them.

And because violence is integral to men's experience it's i far too many women suffer from it.

I think/ wonder if the masculinity is a given by their size and that frees them up a bit with gender role.

A very good point.

I work with a lot of truckers, and no doubt they take the piss out of me, but I can get away with bringing in my own teapot and brewing a rather delicate tea in the canteen without too much of a ribbing. I only just about got away with the jumper my partner knitted me though. 😳😂

Yes, I need my bed too. But I completely understand what you're saying. People often find it hard to empathise with the experiences of others, even if they are generally empathetic people, if that makes sense. Men, especially, tend to think that they have it tough by having to, often unwillingly, fight in the male order of hierarchy but they also forget that women are viewed as somewhere below the weakest man when it comes to this primal benchmark.

I'm not talking about general respect for people, but more the scale of who you are prepared to challenge with a "what are you going to do about it?" when they point out that they jumped the queue etc.

He's a total soppy bloke as well obv.

I find it interesting that over the years on this board, a lot of the regs who are in relationships with men are with physically v big men.

I think/ wonder if the masculinity is a given by their size and that frees them up a bit with gender role.

If a heavyweight boxer says I like to knit in my spare time. People say. Oh that's interesting. A bit of gentle ribbing maybe. No bloke dares go further. IYSWIM.

Must go to bed !

Thank you for sharing that.

DH and I had a (another) conversation about this earlier about 'alpha' males and all that stuff.

He's a big bloke and always got the little blokes fronting up to him in pubs etc.

We have a few things which are tricky in that he feels life hasn't treated him fairly etc. And then I say feminism blah. I see how people automatically get out of his way on the pavement etc. He doesn't notice. That's normal.

We can never understand each others experiences in the end. He can't see or imagine being 5'2 and female. He sees and feels the things that pissed him off which is fine of course.

In the end. Men seem to have this dominance hierarchy thing going on. With other men. Lots don't care about that but they are forced to join in.

Women aren't even on that scale.

It's just totally different.

Anyway I'm wasted too it's well late. Hope that made sense!

With age I have become convinced that violence is almost integral to the male experience, even if in a subliminal way - apologies if I don't explain this well as I've had a few drinks. I know it annoys people when posters start a post with "as a man", but given that my name is ambiguous I should probably clarify that I am one.

I was brought up to be very pacifist and 'turn the other cheek' etc to use a Christian expression, but it did me no good in the real world. I've always been a large individual (tallish and very stocky) and at first other boys would always seemingly respect me. However, when they realised I was a big teddy bear they bullied me horribly and the other lads seemed to love showing off by roughing up a guy twice their size.

My father was no good in helping me with this problem and neither were any schools I ever attended. Even if the teachers spoke to the culprits I was still seen as 'a pussy' and neither my male or female peers respected me. What solved the problem was my cousin dragging me to his boxing class at the age of 13. I was utterly terrified and nothing like the other lads who seemed to enjoy being allowed to have a scrap in a relatively socially acceptable manner. I could see the 'killer instinct' most of them seemed to have, which I lacked completely. What kept me going week after week was the fact that it felt like a victory just to step into the ring despite being utterly petrified. It was a similar situation to how I felt doing work presentations later in life, where I realised that how I felt inside didn't matter as long as I outwardly performed.

I eventually reached the stage where I wasn't afraid of being hit and this changed everything. I started looking at my bullies at school and realising that they were all talk and would not fare well in the ring. I also realised that I had little to be afraid of as most of them would not want to ultimately fight me for three rounds and were looking for an easy target.

I had one bully that always picked on me at the bus stop, and one day I eventually took out my gumshield from my bag and put it in and said "ok then, if you want to box let's do it". He immediately looked hesitant as he wasn't used to this but then tried to dominate me by becoming extremely aggressive. I hit him with a few hard hooks to the body and he folded like a deck chair. I won't lie, it was one of the most satisfying moments of my life and I can see how men with less conscience thrive off of dominating others. But I've been on the other end too many times to ever be a bully.

But ultimately violence is the ultimate 'trump card' in many ways. Without the risk of imprisonment we would live in a very brutal culture as of millennia past, where the best fighters rule. A witty comeback is not much of a counter to a hard punch. But in our current society, violence had been replaced by 'power' it seems to me. The power to fire somebody, the power to have enough money to do/say what you want etc. At school most lads respect the 'hard lads' but this dynamic changes when the smarter individuals are the ones 'in charge'.

Underneath it all, the most powerful countries in the world continue so due to their military ability and financial influence. I think many men are sexist because ultimately they don't feel 'threatened' enough by women. In the same way, many also resent having to submit to men who are their superiors at work but who they see as wimps. If a man is physically imposing most men either respect him or at least fear him in some capacity. I think this is deeply ingrained in male humans at a primal level and underpins many male interactions. I think testosterone is also a big factor but that is another huge topic.

I think as well that there's an acceptance to an extent that it's just normal. I suppose because it is?

Not to say that any single person would say it's ok but there's a sort of cultural blind spot, everywhere.

It's easier not to think too hard on it.

And women being abused generally is a backdrop/ plot advancement in a lot of the media we consume in the UK (our stuff and USA stuff).

And it goes back and back. Like all the stuff about Henry 8th. Is pretty dismissive of what he did. Don't know why that came to mind.

The justice system keeps coming into question when it comes to abuse of women/ girls. Children in general. There's not much horror and outrage over that sports coach who abused loads of boys for example, even though some really brave men told their incredibly affecting stories on mainstream TV.

And in all of this. And I'm no NAMALT. But men kill men like nobodies business.

So it comes back to male violence. As it always does.

Is the appeal of the focus on trans women being murdered is that actually they aren't in the UK so no one actually has to do anything tangible?

People still get kicked in for being visibly homosexual eg those women on the bus. Women get murdered and the men get light sentences on the basis that it was all sexy and an accident. Child sexual abuse on a large scale in the papers all the time.

What I don't get. Or at least I do but it's telling. Is why there isn't much talk about all that stuff? This topic is embedded hugely in both LGB and women's stuff. Where's the, I dunno. Reciprocation? All I see is a push to centre trans people in anything to do with LGB/ women. And no activism the other way around. But people are up for it. A lot.

Women who I assume are not horrible people decide to sign a letter to be released on the far for VAWG to make a point? Why that day? Trans remembrance Day was v recent. We have had a load of women killed in the UK this year, with DV etc increasing during lockdown.

I mean if you want to do a letter fine ok.

But to do it on that day is just. Why?

Easier than thinking what to do about all the murders in this country?

Sorry probably not v coherent.

I think part of the issue is that we are, as a society, desensitised to information due to huge overload, and reading statistics about hundreds of women murdered has less impact than knowing that just one person who you see in real life was murdered, even if it was 'that woman down the road you see at the shop sometimes'.

To people who prioritise feminism, 241 women murdered last year is a horrifying figure, but the average member of the public likely just sees it as another statistic. 241 women murdered, 484 men murdered, 1870 road death, 4303 male suicides, etc, etc.