@lolasmiles, I think we're basically on the same page? I don't think it's the fact of acknowledging men get involved that's patronising (at all!). It's the wrapping it up in language about 'aww isn't daddy good', and it's the insistence that, if you dislike that language, it must be because you don't want men involved at all.

@LolaSmiles Amen!

@ImaSababa

The words 'Breast Feeding Journey' for me is the written version of the daft photos which were in many of the baby rearing books of a few years ago:

A slim and beautiful woman, clad in long pristine white nightie, seated in a chair by an open window. The white net curtain is billowing gently inwards and we can see a garden. The sun streams through the curtain and the light bounces off her beautiful clean hair while she smiles serenely down at a baby peacefully breast feeding (also wearing perfect white of course).

The reality? Well - you can have fun changing the details yourself

He just creeps me out now.

“I'm not sold on Joe Wicks. Just like I'm not sold on Justin Trudeau.“

I can’t look at Trudeau the same way after he seeing he wore black face on, what, three separate occasions? I think he’s just weird - more likely a massive faker than the image of so enlightened and compassionate 21st century male he tries to convey.

SarahAndQuack
I don't think it's patronising to say that dads have a breastfeeding journey any more than a mum having one. I find everything being described as a 'journey' to be a bit twee.I'd say DH's feeding experience is a valid experience that is different to mine and some of it is 'our experience'.

What I dislike is the adoration that's liberally thrown at Joe Wicks for doing nothing that remarkable, but if it starts the discussion about dad involvement then something good can come from it.

Laiste I hope my son sees his dad being hands on in the house and a hands on father so grows up seeing that men being supportive is the norm. DH gets annoyed at the patronising 'aww isn't daddy good for babysitting' mentality because he grew up with a hands on dad who did his fair share so it was normal for him.
It's a tricky one because women are not responsible for men's behaviour, but I can't help but think our actions and what we tolerate sends a message to our children.

The stark fact is, he (and his publisher) thought it would be a very good moneymaker, especially if it’s going to hit the shelves before Christmas.

So many ‘celeb’ witterings come out just in time for people to think, ‘Oh, I haven’t a clue what to get for so-and-so - this might do.’

Agree on language.

What's with the resounding silence / lack of men discussing their "fatherhood journey" ? Stop taking womens language and appropriating womens experiences. Even something like "I really struggled with supporting my wife through her breastfeeding journey" would be preferable to appropriating it.

Make your own language to describe your own experiences please, men.

I'd be surprised if he wrote any of the book, tbh. They probably just used the Joe Wicks name to sell it.

I agree it's a language issue, not about whether or not dads should be involved.

I'll be happy to talk about "our breastfeeding journey" when all SAHMS talk about "our path to promotion" and are allowed to go around saying "we got promoted today! The journey to CEO was really challenging - let me tell you how to do it."

@Hardbackwriter - YY, we were the same. We were absolutely adamant we'd be totally equal and it'd all be a walk in the park. And the biology hit both of us like a ton of bricks.

I don't have a son, but sure, I hope if I ever do I'll educate him as best I can.

I was more thinking about antenatal classes, where typically, everyone involved is getting 'educated' about having a baby.

I don't think there's very good advice out there for men. I absolutely think men ought to be seeking out what there is and being proactive.

Take an example - it's just my experience, so may be really unrepresentative - we did several weeks of NCT classes including a special in-depth session on breastfeeding. We covered lots of things. And when DD was about a month old, and my DP was absolutely shattered to the bones, on night instead of waking her up after two hours' sleep to feed the baby, I let her sleep through for a few hours and gave DD a bottle (she was mix-fed anyway).

No one told me that meant DP would wake up really hurting. I just didn't realise. And I didn't know that it's a risk for mastitis (which, fortunately, DP never got).

We did have someone tell us about 90 million times that breastfeeding women get really thirsty so it's a good idea to make them a cuppa when they wake up to feed. And that was helpful advice. But, before we were told that, none of the men in my group knew breastfeeding dehydrates you. And I only knew because of MN.

This is the sort of stuff I mean. It's not rocket science at all, but it's what people need to know to look after a breastfeeding partner. OTOH, I actually didn't need to know how to latch a baby on. It's not helpful advice for me. And yet, talking to a lot of dads, that's one of the major things they got told about in antenatal class.

"Breastfeeding journey" is annoying, whoever says it. I picture myself on an old-fashioned steam train, leaning out the window with the baby on my tit, hair streaming in the breeze.

It does seem a bit like he's claiming work that wasn't his.

OTOH, I'm glad to see men becoming part of the work of raising children. I'd rather a bit of involvement than men standing outside the room while the woman gives birth/ men dashing off to work and avoiding all but the goodnight kiss - this is NOT a judgement on anyone's experience, I'm talking about the structural edifices that make the habitual, usual default set up of mother as virtually the lone carer and father as this distant, absent figure very hard to break out of.

So, go on, Joe Wicks, well done. Like to hear more about how he found latching.

I really think a lot of the problems do start with this kind of language about 'our journey'. The reality is that life with a newborn is very different for the person who's just had the baby and is breastfeeding, and for the person who ... hasn't. And it's weird. We seem to have gone down a wrong route where men are encouraged to feel they only have two choices: one, be super-involved to the point of acting as if you're the breastfeeding mother, or two, disengage.

On a personal note, I really agree and that was a massive shock for me when we had DS - DH was at home for the first eight weeks and I really assumed we'd be totally equal parents, as we'd always been equal in every other way. It was such a shock to find that breastfeeding meant that it just couldn't all be equal and that for the whole time I was exclusively breastfeeding that, for instance, the nights fell so heavily on me. As you said, I felt like I had an idea that either men were crap or they were equal parents from day one (to my shame looking back, I'd assumed that friends who didn't come to things because they didn't want to leave tiny babies must just have rubbish partners), and the impact of biological reality really threw me. It also made me realise how easy it is to then let that turn into a long-term inequality even when biology doesn't require it; for us I do think it was only really shared parental leave that reset things.

WE need 'proper' education for men on how to be supportive?

How do mothers of sons feel about this i wonder out of interest? Your sons - when they grow up - they're going to need 'proper' education to know how to support their wife after she's had a baby?

Really? Why is the bar set so low for men?

Laiste you are right this is just another thing for him to thing to latch onto he is as deep as a puddle imo

@LolaSmiles, I agree we need dads involved. I just don't see how patronising them is the way forward. Or having them pretend they're 'joining in' or having a 'breastfeeding journey' when they're not.

There has to be a balance between acknowledging and not being shite to active fathers & normalizing that behaviour and what Joe Wicks & similar are doing where they take full ownership and mocking mothers who don't do it to his ideals. Between withdraw and ownership beyond their own experiences. We can think both aren't right.

My spouse went through a lot of shit. He went through a lot to help me breastfeed when I got a lot of rude comments about it and had a lot of issues with it. He was accosted in public multiple times while with our kids.

He has his own story about parenting much of which I probably don't know about, wouldn't never entirely understand and would be his to tell. Mine includes being pregnant and/or breastfeeding for a decade almost solid. He can talk about supporting me through that, he can help normalize father's being main carers by talking about it, but having dealt with multiple medical issues related to my pregnancies and breastfeeding, it would be as naff for him to try talk about 'our breastfeeding journey' and it would be for me to talk about 'our knee surgery and physio journey' or 'our journey of being barred from the Boots baby changing area because a staff member doesn't think men should be in there even if no women are in there'.

We can normalize support without having the support taking over. The support should definitely not be looking down on those actually dealing with it.

Even my local Facebook Mums group is banning fathers - instead of being a parenting group. No one is putting their boobs out on facebook, no valid reason whatsoever to keep it "female only, absolutely none.

Except I guess that the admin chooses to have it that way. If you want a parenting group on Facebook, you can run one your own. There is a different in spaces when they're single sex or mixed sex. It doesn't make one better than the other, there is room for both and neither needs a reason to exist other than people want a space that way. I don't need to get my tits out to want to be in a women's group - that would make women's discos or women's book groups a little weird.

Would there be anything wrong with separate lessons, though?

I don't know how common it is, but when we did antenatal classes, quite a lot of the time we were split into two groups. It's sensible.

I just wish more of the groups for the men had been genuinely helpful stuff.

Oh, and all the people saying 'we need dads involved bless them' ... can you not see how fucking patronising that is? 'Poor ickle wickle menz, pat thems on the head when they does good'.
I do think we need dads involved.
I don't think they need gold stars or special praise for it, but the sad reality is that there's a lot of women out there with partners who seem spectacularly good at opting out of baby care and breastfeeding gives some men the ultimate get out because it's something they can't do.

DH was a huge support when I was getting breastfeeding established. He picked up lots of slack around the house, brought me snacks, sat with me when I was down and that's how it should be in my opinion. He would get really irritated being told how 'good' he was because as far as he's concerned it's what a hands on dad does. We are equal partners and equal parents.

Much as I find Joe Wicks a bit smug, I'm glad to hear him discussing things as a dad.

These insufferable TV and social media numpties, are always writing, and spouting crap, but rubbish seems to always sell,and make big money for them.

We need more proper education for men about how to be genuinely supportive, I think.

They can have their own separate lessons on how to be support humans.

[quote SarahAndQuack]@PeggyPorschen ... but, but ... of course people are pretending men can 'join in'. You've said it. Joe Wicks has said it. It's, like, all over this thread?

If you suddenly decided you're wrong, feel free to say so, but otherwise, I can't follow your post.[/quote]
I am not following you?

I have had the same point across the thread, it's obvious I disagree with many posts?

I'm not being "poor men" but I think reality Vs expectations can be an issue and lead to men being pushed away/withdrawing from parenting "accidentally" and thus becoming "useless" at parenting.

I think that's so true.

I really think a lot of the problems do start with this kind of language about 'our journey'. The reality is that life with a newborn is very different for the person who's just had the baby and is breastfeeding, and for the person who ... hasn't. And it's weird. We seem to have gone down a wrong route where men are encouraged to feel they only have two choices: one, be super-involved to the point of acting as if you're the breastfeeding mother, or two, disengage.

We need more proper education for men about how to be genuinely supportive, I think.