Ooo, Jo Maugham isn't happy...

WouldbeGood that's an excellent question. There are any number of issues affecting children that they could choose to champion. The epidemic of sexual assault in schools, for example.

vulvaperson
I hope it gets sorted out for you soon.

Why do these men feel the need to pontificate about this all the time?

That sounds really tough, vulvaperson I’m sorry you’re being left to suffer

Blocked

Must be on a block chain list because I’ve never tweeted anything GC (or anything much at all).

Regarding the astro-turfing comment, it seems that the basis is here:

twitter.com/DavidPaisley/status/1330487201084411908

I can see where that part of the comment is coming from.

There does seem to be an increasing desperation to stop the wheels coming off. David Paisley and his 'research' into the LGB Alliance, Jolyon and his claims (which as a PP said are fairly surprising for a lawyer to make), lots of links to Pink News everywhere claiming this and that. And now Owen Jones is supporting JM and wanging on about 'transphobic haters'.

That is a bizarre and impossible ask, surely. For any medical issue?! That those on he waiting list are sent abroad for treatment instead?!

I guess their view must be that the NHS is short of facilities, but has lots of excess money, and that it makes sense to use this supposed excess money to do short-term fixes like paying to sending people abroad rather than building up its own facilities.

Waiting lists are shocking, and will be worse given how many things have been cancelled during this covid thing, but the pretense that its only trans related stuff is just stupid. Its across the board, and yes, it is bad, but I am not sure what can actually be done about it at this time? I waited nearly 3 years to see a pain specialist, when I have pain near 24 hours per day, sometimes bad enough to mean I cannot even get out of bed and need help just to go to the loo, a few times a month at present, I end up in A+E feeling like I am actually dying, and need jabbed with IV morphine, and they still don't know whats actually wrong, only that the pain is bad and often. While I am not saying my problem is worse than someone feeling 'in the wrong body', I fail to see why its acceptable for me to wait that long for something thats severely limiting my life, while others should apparently be sent abroad for quicker treatment, because their problems are more serious presumably? And fuck the suicide risk being brought up as an excuse for prioritising trans stuff. My illness absolutely made me suicidal, and still does even with painkillers..the only reason I am here is because I cannot bring myself to leave my kids. Suicide is absolutely not a tool to blackmail medics into doing what you want, nor is suicidal ideation limited to 'trans people'

a dark money funded astro-turfed hate group

what a spectacularly stupid thing for a lawyer to say publically?!

Also the whinging because it was not all sunshine and rainbows and actually got some balance is..weird if any other subject, but par for the course with this one.

I was really shocked that children from families who couldn't pay would be waiting over 3 years. That's going to potentially have an impact on the entire rest of their lives.

That's just one example obviously.

Mental health services in general for children have massive waiting lists. You get issues like children going into residential help 100s miles from home. It's been in the news. And girls put in with boys etc.

There's been loads in the papers.

I waited 2 years for speech therapy for DD and ended up going private as she was about to start school and she barely spoke and when she did no one could understand most of it. Including us.

I got an appt through about s year later. That turned out to be an assessment. Then if they agreed she needed therapy she would join the actual waiting list.

We were very lucky to be able to pay. I was really shocked that anyone who couldn't. Kids identified as needing help when little could be waiting until well into primary school. Affecting ability to communicate with teachers, make friends etc etc.

This was a few years back I doubt it's got better.

I don't understand why this one concern takes precedent over the host of other issues and illnesses that have massive waiting lists.

Even worse than your analogy @TyroTerf is the new nose could leave them with a whole host of hideous side effects, reduced cognitive capacity and as a life long medical patient. Never mind not able to grow up and develop an adult's sex life.

No one in their right mind would think this is a good idea for anyone let alone kids.

Maugham'a motivations for going to court on this issue is deeply suspect.

'Children are losing the opportunity to be seen within a window in which they can secure effective treatment and so are, in practice, being denied access to treatments which are correlated with reduced suicide risk.'

In practice, pushing the affirmative transition route scuppers the patient's capacity to access suicidality-reducing MH support effectively.

What on earth does he think is the "problem" requiring treatment?

I'm liking rhinoplasty as an analogy here. Some adults feel suicidal and attribute it to their nose being too big. It's ever so hard having to work and save for surgery (which the NHS fascist oppressors so cruelly deny them). Let's make it easier for kids who are going to grow up to have big noses, by smashing and reforming their noses when they're ten.

It's batshit, but that's JM's logic.

Ach, sorry, Betty, I missed your post above. Thanks, that's very informative.

JM claims that

'Children are losing the opportunity to be seen within a window in which they can secure effective treatment and so are, in practice, being denied access to treatments which are correlated with reduced suicide risk.'

Is there any evidence at all that treatments he's describing (puberty blockers, I presume) are correlated with reduced suicide risk? I was under the impression the reverse was true?

[quote Kit19]PurpleHoodie
Stonewall www.stonewall.org.uk/sites/default/files/trans_stats.pdf[/quote]
This report is not considered to be accurate as the survey was not carried out correctly. For a start, a small number responded, and they were invited to respond.
If you ask a group of teens who have anorexia if they have suicidal feelings would you be surprised if they overwhelmingly said yes?

The Samaritans suicide is rarely attributable to a single cause, and reporting it as such compounds the problem, rather than helps it.

I lost quite a few friends to suicide when I was late teens/early 20s (a mixture of male and female friends) and sadly, I’m now old enough that my friends are falling into the other statistically significant age group and three have taken their own lives in recent years (all male).

Transactivists directing media focus towards a lack of transition resources as the primary (or worse, sole factor) does everyone experiencing suicide ideation a disservice.
We need evidenced and timely intervention for all in distress, preferably tailored for life stage.

This is an interesting film which is well worth a watch - The Trans Train.

Puberty blockers in males prevents the penis from developing so he will always have a little boys penis. This affects sexual feelings, means if he wants to have a neo vagina made the surgery is much more extensive and less likely to succeed and he will never experience orgasm. Not something that a young boy can give informed consent on.

The other thing to consider about suicide in the transgender population is that transitioning increases risk of suicide considerably. So if transgender teens were struggling with suicide ideation then the last thing they should do is transition.

Thank you Betty for all the links. Really useful. My daughter, in her 20's, has had a friend commit suicide and also 2 friends of friends. My nephew's friend committed suicide as a teenager. Its utterly tragic, so sad to see young people not wanting to continue their lives. But sadly some young people do, nothing to do with being trans.

I still say Hammy was identifying as a fox.

Samaritans say compiling suicide rates (for all people) is ‘challenging’. They provide a video explaining why in the following link:

www.samaritans.org/about-samaritans/research-policy/suicide-facts-and-figures/

ONS compiles age group data from coroners rulings, but that doesn’t necessarily tell us anything about gender distress.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2019registrations#suicide-patterns-by-age

(thankfully the numbers of deaths caused by suicide in minors is still low, although it has risen recently amongst girls)

GIDs say suicide amongst the paediatric gender patient population is ‘extremely rare’.
Presumably this is based on information from coroners reports and ‘serious case reviews’, but I can’t see a reference - am I just missing something?

gids.nhs.uk/evidence-base

I found this FOI result via a slightly differently phrased search term:

tavistockandportman.nhs.uk/documents/1253/FOI_18-19180_GIDS_Patients_Suicide_Data.pdf

The one highly publicised case of the suicide of a British transboy (aged 18) occurred whilst on cross sex hormone treatment (prescribed by Dr Webberly of GenderGP, not the NHS)

As yet there is no national nor international evidence that transition lessons the risk of suicide in children or adults. www.genderhq.org/blog/category/Trans+Youth+Ethics

According to GIDs own research into the use of GnRHa medications to suppress puberty, depression and suicide ideation increased in natal females (transboys) whilst taking the drugs and also resulted in increased negative body image in two aspects (whereas natal males reported a positive increase in one aspect):

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

Every suicide is an absolute tragedy, especially in young people, but we can’t do anything to prevent it if the start point is bad or absent data. Anyone who actually cares about gender distressed minors should be up in arms over the shoddy record keeping and politically motivated myth making. Suicide is well known fo spread as a kind of psychological contagion, especially amongst adolescents and young adults. (The following is .gov advice to help stop suicide contagion within the working environment: www.hhs.gov/answers/mental-health-and-substance-abuse/what-does-suicide-contagion-mean/index.html

So using suicide as a pro transition argument could actually result in more suicides amongst those who are gender distressed, rather than fewer.

The BBC are right to keep Jolyon’s suicide baiting out of their article, even if we give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he is being completely unintentional, it still has the potential to increase suicide or suicide ideation amongst gender distressed adolescents.

I hope the trans youth in the case has a good support network, both professionally and personally.

(Link to helplines for anyone who might be reading this who is struggling: www.nhs.uk/conditions/suicide/
Please don’t struggle on alone )