Breastfeeding support group wants to allow males

I would leave, and find a female only group. This one is clearly determined to go down the mixed sex group, and you have been marked as a 'problem' if your posts were deleted and are probably on borrowed time now.

I wouldn't feel comfortable in a mixed sex/open breastfeeding support group tbh, so can see whaere you are coming from.

Isn't the entire point of a breastfeeding group that it is focussed on women who are breastfeeding?

A new mother left the group I attended because she turned completely to bottle feeding. I wouldn't have joined a 'system' feeding group as I was not doing that. I wouldn't join and sit in on a group for men who suffer from erectile dysfunction either. If every women's group is for everything and everybody, the focus and purpose is lost.

Breast feeding is an amazing. It was a revelation that from the colostrum first came in, a woman's body makes a nourishment appropriate for the age of her baby/infant and changes as they grow.

Yes there are books, but in the absence of female relations to ask, nothing can replace a good breastfeeding group and knowledgeable and practical leader.

A breastfeeding group should be open to all females, but I do believe female-centric language is critical. One of the key factors in overcoming our breastfeeding challenges was my embracing my uniquely female power. We can grow and nourish a human being. As a cancer survivor with an auto-immune disorder who suffered from 9 months of hyperemesis, the fact that my very flawed body could grow a healthy child was a thought that kept me going. My husband could support me, but I was woman with the power to literally give life via milk. Gender neutral language for pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding is actively harmful for women like me that need to find that power within to succeed.

I'm a bit surprised that the OP and others seem to want to exclude trans men. It's frequently said on here that gender critical feminists are not trans exclusionary as they welcome trans men because they are actually biological women.

The problem with including transmen in groups like these (ones that specifically discuss female biological function) is the inevitable language policing that comes with it (sometimes by wokish women on behalf of transmen, who haven’t actually even requested it themselves).

Women are eventually banned from using words like ‘mother’ ‘breastfeeding’ and starting posts with salutations such as ‘Hey ladies!’
It all becomes a depressing and alienating purity spiral and most importantly of all, it gets in the way of the groups main aim, supporting as many women to achieve their breastfeeding aims as possible.

The solution is multiple groups, some that are solely for breastfeeding women who identify as women and use language that reflects that, and some that are NB/Transman focused (but are perhaps open to women who are happy to use non-dysphoria triggering language at all times, so as there are sufficient numbers to actually make a group).

It’s much the same as the argument for third spaces for lavatories - add some extra provision for those who don’t want to use the one provided for their birth sex, but don’t just make it ALL unisex and thus harder for the majority for the sake of a very small minority.

The problem is that breastfeeding and pregnancy groups is are ALL bending over to be kind and inclusive and thus accidentally making the goals they set out to achieve harder and harder to reach.

See the recent thread on La Leche League Australia (bearing in mind that for decades, LLLs hugely, globally, influential book was titled ‘The Womanly Art of Breastfeeding’, so they must I’ve once believed in the value of very woman-centric language).

[quote FirstClassFlightHome]@ifIwerenotanandroid Why should she be pushed out? Men do not belong in a breastfeeding group. Period.[/quote]
I agree that she shouldn't have to. The group admin, having asked if it was OK, should have listened to the existing members of the group.

It's just a possible way forward.

The OP has clarified and said it was males that she was uncomfortable with. Males. not females who identified as men.

So, having felt a sense of despair with my own breastfeeding experience, I have every empathy for a mother who cannot, due to Covid, get help any other way than to post pictures of their breast, latch etc. I too would join one of these groups out of dire need. Because I had NO other support available.

Hence, there is even greater need to have better security and vetting around membership don’t you think?

I'm a bit surprised that the OP and others seem to want to exclude trans men. It's frequently said on here that gender critical feminists are not trans exclusionary as they welcome trans men because they are actually biological women.

@Soontobe60 which was precisely the point I was getting at. They need different support to natal women breastfeeding in a natural way and so should have their own page, specific for their needs.

It is interesting that the posters who seem entirely baffled by your posts are the same names that appear on every post in FWR rejecting the need for female spaces and, frankly, dickpandering left right and centre.

Nope, I agree that the group should remain free of men, they have no business being there and would make many women who rely on the group for info and support feel uncomfortable and unable to participate; which is a real shame. The OPs title says about men, then transmen and transwomen are mentioned- it was unclear what OP was on about as one group of them are biologically women, and it's not all men as the title suggests. Why not just say transwomen have no business being added to a group that doesn't cater to their unique needs?

I'm due my first baby in a week or two and thought I'd check to see whether this related to one of the breastfeeding groups I'm in. It does, I've seen the poll, and I've now left the group.

I'm not transphobic in any way, people can identify however the hell they want, FTM trans people can lactate and need support too, but I fundamentally disagree that a (currently) female safe-space bf group should open up to males unless 100% of the participants agree. The vote on the poll was currently 70:30 (ish) in favour of males being allowed in but for me I'm not comfortable with them ignoring the needs of that 30%.

I wouldn't even feel comfortable with male partners being in there, never mind MTF trans people who can't even produce milk without artificially stimulating it with chemicals. Women post pictures of videos of their latch, of blebs, pictures of their babies breastfeeding - really personal things. Unless every single woman in the group agrees to allowing males it should be a hard no.

I agree, op, that a breastfeeding group should be single sex, exclusive of males. I can see that your initial posts were slightly confusing, conflating sex and gender-possibly in an attempt to avoid explicitly saying the truth: trans-identifying-men /transwomen have no place in the group.
It is interesting that the posters who seem entirely baffled by your posts are the same names that appear on every post in FWR rejecting the need for female spaces and, frankly, dickpandering left right and centre.

What It's Like to Chestfeed
“The many obstacles trans men and other transmasculine people run into when feeding infants”
www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/08/chestfeeding/497015/

From that article:
When Trevor MacDonald started chestfeeding about five years ago, he didn't know anyone who had attempted it, nor had any of his doctors ever encountered someone who had. In fact, he was shocked that his body could even produce milk.

I now have a rather odd image in my head of Trevor McDonald breastfeeding a baby after finishing the news at ten

Inducing lactation with all sorts of drugs which will almost definitely pass onto the baby through the milk is something to be celebrated because it means a male is getting to do exactly what he wants, so nothing else matters - do keep up!

As an aside, how many transwomen out there are actually doing this, that it would warrant opening up breastfeeding support groups to them? I thought there was a story last year about one transwoman managing to lactate small amounts of milk with a cocktail of drugs, and that was probably in America.

If this is about allowing transwomen into the group (I'm still not totally clear on your stance on allowing transmen into the group?) then perhaps you could question why and transwoman needs access to a breastfeeding group? And make the point that a transwomen who is artificially lactating (gross) would probably need specialist support that they are not going to find in a standard women's breastfeeding group.

I am another who would be very wary of posting pictures of my boobs online. Yes these groups are very loosely vetted but there is no real way of policing that and literally anyone could be on that group. I am on a FB group for women with breast cancer and the questions I was asked to join were questions that anyone could answer, and I am always aware that not everyone will necessarily be genuine. This is probably even more so the case in an online group about breastfeeding, especially if there are a lot of members.

But I still agree that the overall stance for a breastfeeding support group should be 'no men, however they identify'.

quaagers and dido

I would normally be saying the same thing about photo security- anything posted on line ever has the ability to be then used for other purposes.

However, what is the solution if you are needing breastfeeding advice and you cannot get it any other way? You also don’t know if this poster is having to self isolate. Do you have suggestions that do not involve a private lactation nurse?

When I was breastfeeding, I seem to remember that they urged caution if the mother was using medication/drugs when the effect on the baby was unknown.

Is that not still the case?

I am sorry to hear that this has happened to a group of mothers of young children during a pandemic.

Of course there is a huge difference between ‘normalizing breastfeeding’ and seeking assistance on line when the clinics are closed. Normalizing breastfeeding does not include allowing people access to seeing your latching technique in public. It is quite a stretch to make this connection.

There seems to be a growing, though still miniscule, number of transwomen who are inducing a drug laden cocktail to feed infants. It Isn’t hard to find their blogs and media reports. Should they have access to a fb group of women needing support when the women don’t want males present? It is for the individual group to decide surely. I would feel very uncomfortable sharing photos (because the clinics are closed and this is my only option FFS) in that scenario.

And then there is the situation where you don’t know if they even are breastfeeding an infant or they are there for reasons of their own. Like those who have pregnancy photography done. You cannot dent that there are transwomen doing this, they put their professionally done portraits up for people to see. They may be in that group for reasons that are not to support women breastfeeding at all.

I hope you can find another group, I can see how difficult it would be though with groups and clinics closed.

I think someone is shit stirring or having you on.

Trans men (born female) are dysphoric about their breasts, often have them removed and refer to their top half as ‘chest’ and chest feeding.

At least that’s what actual trans men say.

“Chestfeeding (a spin on "breastfeeding") is a term coined to include trans men who nurse their infants.”

www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a63217/chestfeeding/

What It's Like to Chestfeed
“The many obstacles trans men and other transmasculine people run into when feeding infants”

www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/08/chestfeeding/497015/

Could you pivot your reply that you really want transwomen to feel supported in a group that is particular to their needs so encourage the admins to create/continue with the new group but everyone in the existing group will participate in an ‘engagement strategy’ to help get the trans group going?
That way they can try again, get some support and your group stays private?
Best of luck.

[quote MoonJelly]Can men breastfeed?

Yes.

health.howstuffworks.com/human-body/parts/why-men-have-nipples1.htm[/quote]
Only with drugs. Which pass through to the baby. Just like alcohol.

Breasts will never be normalised so that excuse for allowing men to join a breast feeding group can be rejected. We have gone too far down the route of sexualising breasts. And that is also one of the reasons why a lot of young mothers do not breast feed as they don’t see their breasts as baby feeders.

If you are using a system, that is in a different arena to breastfeeding. With a breastfeeding group, you are particularly getting guidance and support in relation to your body's ability to produce milk for your baby. The breastfeeding group I attended wasn't a general mother/parent and baby session. It was to help with breastfeeding.

Also, using your nipple as a dummy isn't breastfeeding either. Again no breastfeeding advice needed.

[quote HotGlueGun]@Duckwit actually that's not true. It IS possible for a transman to have chest surgery and still breastfeed. Yes they are biologically women but they present as MALE. Why would they want to be there? [/quote]
They would have to use a supplementary feeding system as their breast tissue which includes milk ducts etc have been removed - so actually, they are not technically breastfeeding, they're formula feeding via an artificial device. They would most likely need specialist advice and support for this. An actual breastfeeding support group would not have this.

Endemic Panda, I think the OP also mentioned transwomen who are using a Supplementary Nursing System or SNS, as described by GlowingOrb earlier on this thread. Again though, I would think that is something requiring quite specialist support, not general breastfeeding support.

Comfort nursing (allowing a baby to suck on breasts/nipples of someone with no milk supply) is something I first came across in lesbian parent groups, where the non-birthing mother may offer a breast to settle a very sucky baby instead of a dummy, bond with it, etc. I can see it might be an appropriate thing to do under some circumstances, but again, not really something you’d need a breastfeeding support group for.