Womens liberation and lesbianism

OP I think you make some ibteresting points. In the surrogacy threads, I agree there has been some movement towards problematizing any reproductive technology, including male gamete donation, and even adoption by non relatives.

In general, I come down on the side of male gamete donation is fine, and adoption of any kind is fine. I don’t agree with the arguments that are sometimes made here that it’s evil or cruel for a birth mother (surrogate or adoptive) to give up her child to loving adoptive parents, or that any gamete donation is equally unethical. In my opinion it’s harm to donors that matter, and the resulting incentives. Sperm donation is much more like blood donation, surrogacy is much more like kidney donation. The altruistic surrogacy model is in my view an acceptable compromise.

I think though that it is useful still to have these debates even if uncomfortable. Much better than a bioethical approach which is basically “anything goes if you’re rich enough to afford it!” That currently dominates discourse. The fact that in NEw York the governor jammed commercial surrogacy into the NY COVID bill (over feminist objections) calling it an “LGBT rights issue” and implying not supporting would make representatives bigots was just shameful for example. Sunlight and debate are needed, not silence.

I think you're not wrong about the rising currents of heteronormativity on here. There are a lot of posters who fundamentally think it's harmful to children to live outside of a hetero two parent family and express that both openly and covertly. (Broken homes, children must know their fathers, etc) It's one of the reasons I often have to nope out of this space. I do recommend frequent breaks! I just went back and looked at similar conversations on here 5 and 10 years ago and there's been (imo) a definite shift in tone.

One thing I tell myself is that this is an open, public, now very high traffic board. Compared to 10 years ago it's just got loads more people reading and talking. So it's got women with all kinds of views - many of which I do not understand as politically feminist views - but they are all here and on a journey with their feminism. They may be at the beginning, they may be a long way down the road, but at least they are showing up and thinking about these issues with others. Just putting your views on here, steadily, when you have capacity to do so, is worth it.

No worries at all. Xx

@LesbianonFWR yes I know that, I was saying that sperm donors etc get pulled into the debate as part of assisted conception/rights of the child to know father etc. My post was in support of you.

And I just don't want to believe that any woman would so dismiss others because they are bloody lesbian! How has that become something you can not know about, say such shit about, betray?

I'm not gay... usual disclaimer about gay family and friends... and can't imagine being so fucking dense. But please don't ask me any questions, you may get told!

Not you, obviously Shed but those who walk amongst us with such closed and certain minds!

I don't understand how you can be part of a feminist organisation and not support Lesbian women.

Me neither. But I do hear a lot of ignorance from people who think lesbians just have it all sorted now. As if having Nicola Adams on Strictly (love her btw) or rainbow flags in high street shops or gay couples in adverts is evidence that no-one is homophobic anymore.

I'm straight but I do think that there needs to be a separate space for lesbians generally as they seem to have been pushed out of the (l)gbtq+ sphere (for being pesky women no doubt!) And as a feminist I would like to hear more experiences and how we can support their requirements in our feminist aims.

The sperm donor thing - I'm on the fence about surrogacy etc as I think I would be destroyed if I couldn't have a baby so I do see where your e coming from but also where the critical element might be coming from too.

Yes I do think there is sometimes a whiff of homophobia around MN in addition to racism etc

That's awful Shed, I'm really sorry about what happened to your group. Plus those comments! I don't understand how you can be part of a feminist organisation and not support Lesbian women.

Not sure which bit of my post you're so astonished by, Curious, but yes — all sadly true. Labour wouldn't have ended up where it has if every time someone said something homophobic or dismissive of lesbians, they were jumped on. If you're a straight, relatively conventional Labour supporter then lesbians ask difficult questions and make you feel uncomfortable.

I’m an outspoken critic of much of the LGBT anti bullying stuff, but mostly because a) it’s being delivered by people with no professional expertise, only personal anecdotes and b) you may as well rebrand it TTTT.

My stepdaughter experiences relentless lesbophobic bullying in the school changing rooms, and the schools solution was to essentially groom her into identifying as a straight boy, rather than actually do anything about the bullying.
School is a stonewall bronze champion and the deputy head is a gay man.

It’s taken us a year to unpick it all and begin to repair the damage to her mental health.

I’m anti LGBT orgs, but only because as far as I can tell, they are almost all utterly shit for lesbians nowadays. Maybe I need to start typing it ‘GBT’ instead? Or (L)GBT?

@Shedbuilder ye fucking gods! Really?

Oh, I am not saying I don't believe you. I am saying I don't want to believe you!

FFS!

But I suppose it's easily seen in the utterly intransigence of the youth and other woke peoples! That hard line It Is This Way And No Otherness. Like Brexit gave racists and xenophobes a free pass so the T is giving homophobes an equally free platform to disapprove, clutch their pearls and voice their bigotry!

Yeah, there's a quiet and often plausibly deniable homophobia rising that we haven't see for the last decade. I'm a lesbian, by the way.

The first thing to do, OP, is stop linking LGB and T. Separate it out. It's not the LGB anti-bullying groups who are doing the damage in schools. It's the fact that the transactivists have forcibly co-opted the LGB agenda and added the T to it that's so damaging and is turning people against the lot of us. So we need to break that link — and that involves never writing LGBT+ again, always LGB and T+ and making it clear they are not one thing. Join the LGB Alliance and start doing something about it. The LGBA is open to everyone who supports LGB people, not just LGB people.

I've just watched another little, secret lesbian group I'm part of (only 30 or 40 people) bite the dust because one of the members who was quietly woke took offence at someone saying something mildly critical of trans ideology and has outed the group on FB and invited all her trans friends and their friends to come to events. Another small tragedy, more lesbians who are unlikely ever to be able to socialise comfortably together. I mention this because I'm sitting here seething bitterly at the moment about the damage that lesbians are causing their own community. How this woman would square what she's done with being a feminist I don't know and will probably never learn.

There are often strong whiffs of homophobia here on Mumsnet, some of it subtly expressed and by a handful of names I'm beginning to recognise, including Goosefoot. I think it's become quite acceptable in right-on society for people to be scathing of lesbians. I went to a WPUK event a couple of years ago. The four female speakers were all straight and there was the occasional comment that assumed that everyone in the audience was too. During question time at the end a local female Labour councillor got up and said something along the lines of: 'I never used to have time for lesbians, but now I feel sorry for them.' I thought of all the lesbians I know who run voluntary sector services in her area, all the lesbian social workers and teachers, my lesbian friend in child protection and the DV shelter I know that's effectively run by dykes. And this sainted Labour councillor, a local legend herself, didn't have time for them. Would she have said the same thing about red-haired people, Asians, deaf people? No she bloody well wouldn't. That was the day I understood that I was going to have to move away from Labour.

who say they are sick of hearing about LGBT rights, I'd just like to expand that bit...

I suspect we are ALL sick and tired of hearing about LGBT issues!

Wouldn't mind listening to LGB isses. Would love to be able to discuss womens issues without being shouted at!

It's the all devouring T that causes issues, disruptions, misunderstangis and ever more entrenched views!

I'm straight so it would be daft if I said there wasn't an issue but what I can say is that since coming onto this board my eyes have been opened to the trampling on of the rights of lesbians to have sex with other lesbians and that to insist is transphobic. I felt real anger. I know that lots of women on this board share that anger. So whilst there will be issues regarding same sex relationships, god, there are issues regarding all relationships. I would hope that the joining together of women on this board is a real plus for women's rights in general and learning about the impact on lesbians of TRA's has been a real positive.

I signed up to LGB newsletters because this is about women, I don't have to be lesbian to understand the issues.

Hope you feel a little more positive op. I get very sensitive about pronouns because my son has Aspergers and doesn't understand but every time I see a post including that word, I can feel my hackles rising

Should read under the auspices of anti-bullying organisations (which include numerous LGBTQ bodies)