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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Labour MP Fleur Anderson saying TWAW, change must happen and be kind

82 replies

WarriorsComeOutToPlayay · 18/11/2020 14:47

Ironically her next tweet is about anti bullying says "it's ok to be different" (which of course it is).

So according to Fleur 'difference' is good, apart from when it relates to the fact that transwomen and women are different.

I'm all for her message that transgender people should not be discriminated against but pretending they are something they are not and losing the true definition of women as a group, that I can't get on board with.

I am lifelong Labour but can't vote for this. When is Keir Starmer going to get off the fence?

twitter.com/PutneyFleur/status/1328363248077443072

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VulvaPerson · 18/11/2020 19:05

Hmm. Trans awareness week, apparently? Sure there was one of these not long ago..

twitter.com/KeithFarnish/status/1329087507875598343

Also as usual, right in with 'protecting womens rights is taking trans rights away!!!!11'

TyroTerf · 18/11/2020 17:18

There is no conflict between trans women’s rights and cis women’s rights

I wish someone would tell her that, under the current definition of 'trans', feminists by definition are not 'cis'.

And, as women who are neither cis not trans, we are completely erased from her words.

RealityNotEssentialism · 18/11/2020 17:16

A friend of the family works for an independent school that is inspected by ofsted. It’s not a fancy school or anything - many of its pupils are ones who can’t cope in mainstream education, including those who have been excluded. They used to have single sex provision for toilets. In the past few years, several pupils have decided that they ID as trans or NB. The school leadership responded by making all toilets gender neutral. Several girls complained saying they were scared of some of the male pupils and felt very uncomfortable. They were basically told they were bigots. It turns out the provision of single sex toilets is actually a legal requirement so the agreement between the teachers now is that if an Ofsted inspection is sprung upon them, someone will immediately replace the male and female toilet signs that are kept in the head’s office and which were removed. Absolutely staggering. They KNOW they are failing their girls but they don’t care.

Oh and the family friend is woke (but older) so was telling me this in an ‘oh isn’t this funny’ way. I tried to stay calm but gave her a bit of an earful about how they were breaking the law. Poor poor girls.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 18/11/2020 17:15

I’m not kind. I’m nice but being kind just means letting someone do/say what they want so that you don’t hurt their feelings in this case.

yourhairiswinterfire · 18/11/2020 17:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 18/11/2020 17:01

Isn’t it international toilet day tomorrow? And they don’t mean share a toilet.

HecatesCats · 18/11/2020 16:59

Let's be kind while we watch little girls have to share toilets with boys in school, girls who are too young to articulate why that even makes them uncomfortable.

The sad thing is that girls are articulating it, they're just being ignored. That's not very kind.

Pupils are missing school because they don't like mixed sex toilets and 'period shaming' is one of the main issues

www.walesonline.co.uk/news/education/pupils-missing-school-because-dont-15839558

HecatesCats · 18/11/2020 16:56

@HumanFemale1

"Let's be kind."

Female socialization at work. These people are always so baffled that some women refuse to "be kind". They just don't understand how we didn't get the memo, that as women, our job is to be kind despite our rights, safety and privacy are being decimated.

Let's be kind while we hear reports of vulnerable women in prison being raped by male inmates.

Let's be kind while we watch teenage girls try to escape misogyny by doing irreversible damage to their bodies.

Let's be kind while we watch women's sports being destroyed, female athletes who have trained entire lives don't get a chance to compete because Josh has decided he is now Jenny after not qualifying for the men's team.

Let's be kind while we watch males who have raped someone get that crime recorded as a women's crime.

Let's be kind while we watch little girls have to share toilets with boys in school, girls who are too young to articulate why that even makes them uncomfortable.

I will not be gaslight into submission by being told that putting up with this is kind. If that is what kind is, there is something wrong with Fleur's definition of the word kind.

Kindness never extends to women with genuine concerns does it.
ThatIsNotMyUsername · 18/11/2020 16:51

Sorry that was the BoE. No idea what to BoI is up to!

RealityNotEssentialism · 18/11/2020 16:48

@ThatIsNotMyUsername

So yesterday the BoI was lit in the trans colours. We have days if remembrance for precisely zero people who have been killed, IWD centres people not born female.

Do these people not actually look at the real world and think ‘hmmmmmm, lotta lobbying and money swishing around this issue. I wonder who wins and who loses?’

Yeah the day of remembrance is idiotic. There is absolutely no evidence that trans people are killed at any higher rate than anybody else. In the few countries where there are high numbers, these are predominantly among sex workers, who have a high risk of being killed, whatever sex they are. Nobody is going around murdering trans people in the UK, US or mainland Europe. The middle-class, privately educated twits who go around saying this stuff are so hopelessly out of touch that it’s comical. No other marginalised group has such a powerful lobby behind it as this one and no other group in the past gained rights through a refusal to debate and merely threatening anyone who objected.

We’ve just had the Yorkshire Ripper back in the news. There we had dozens of women attacked, many brutally murdered for no other reason than that they were women and Peter Sutcliffe hated them and wanted them dead. They were defenceless against a much stronger man. Now that would warrant a remembrance ceremony but nobody’s interested because violence against women is so commonplace.

Galvantula · 18/11/2020 16:46

Yup, Mimmymum has told on the "transphobes". Hmm

Labour really don't want many votes. 🤷‍♀️

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 18/11/2020 16:37

So yesterday the BoI was lit in the trans colours. We have days if remembrance for precisely zero people who have been killed, IWD centres people not born female.

Do these people not actually look at the real world and think ‘hmmmmmm, lotta lobbying and money swishing around this issue. I wonder who wins and who loses?’

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 18/11/2020 16:22

This 'be kind' crap completely does my head in.

Kindness can only go so far. Kindness lets you be walked all over. Kindness can put you at immense risk, risk that you may no appreciate or understand. Kindness can be massively taken advantage of by the greedy or cynical.

Be kind, as it's being plugged at the moment, means 'be a doormat, there's a good girl.'
Fuck that shit.

Iamanaubergine · 18/11/2020 16:05

I see Mimmymum has commented on that tweet about this thread...

HumanFemale1 · 18/11/2020 16:03

"Let's be kind."

Female socialization at work. These people are always so baffled that some women refuse to "be kind". They just don't understand how we didn't get the memo, that as women, our job is to be kind despite our rights, safety and privacy are being decimated.

Let's be kind while we hear reports of vulnerable women in prison being raped by male inmates.

Let's be kind while we watch teenage girls try to escape misogyny by doing irreversible damage to their bodies.

Let's be kind while we watch women's sports being destroyed, female athletes who have trained entire lives don't get a chance to compete because Josh has decided he is now Jenny after not qualifying for the men's team.

Let's be kind while we watch males who have raped someone get that crime recorded as a women's crime.

Let's be kind while we watch little girls have to share toilets with boys in school, girls who are too young to articulate why that even makes them uncomfortable.

I will not be gaslight into submission by being told that putting up with this is kind. If that is what kind is, there is something wrong with Fleur's definition of the word kind.

RealityNotEssentialism · 18/11/2020 15:48

@FamilyOfAliens

While there is an argument for it happening when someone has irreversible genital surgery and obtains a GRC, if you suggest that, you get shouted down as hateful because being trans has nothing to do with genitals.

There’s an argument that a legal fiction has been created. Humans cannot change sex. Not now, not ever.

Yeah I know they can’t literally change sex but we have law that says they can for legal purposes and that’s not going to change. At least with surgical requirements there is some logic to it. The ‘when people say they are the opposite sex’ is ludicrous.
FamilyOfAliens · 18/11/2020 15:45

While there is an argument for it happening when someone has irreversible genital surgery and obtains a GRC, if you suggest that, you get shouted down as hateful because being trans has nothing to do with genitals.

There’s an argument that a legal fiction has been created. Humans cannot change sex. Not now, not ever.

BlueCatRedCat · 18/11/2020 15:41

Stupid, misogynistic and wilfully dishonest. No new surprises from Labour, then.

RealityNotEssentialism · 18/11/2020 15:40

@LajesticVantrashell

At what point though? At what point to transwomen become women?? At the literal point of identification?? So Pip/Phillip Bunce is a woman? Except on the days he/she isn’t?!
Exactly. While there is an argument for it happening when someone has irreversible genital surgery and obtains a GRC, if you suggest that, you get shouted down as hateful because being trans has nothing to do with genitals. And then you’re in a ludicrous situation where someone is a man on Monday and therefore has privilege and cannot be in female spaces but then on Tuesday says he is a woman and must be welcomed in and is suddenly hugely oppressed. I can’t see how any rational sane person can’t see this is utter idiocy and totally illogical.
MoreJammyDodgersPlease · 18/11/2020 15:38

I believe Putney was the only constituency in the last election to switch from Conservative to Labour. (The Conservative candidate was truly woeful, the Lib Dem campaign was bizarre).
I voted for Fleur despite many concerns about the Labour party. I think this is the first time I've seen comments from her on this issue, and now there's really no one to vote for.

LajesticVantrashell · 18/11/2020 15:25

*do

LajesticVantrashell · 18/11/2020 15:25

At what point though? At what point to transwomen become women?? At the literal point of identification?? So Pip/Phillip Bunce is a woman? Except on the days he/she isn’t?!

HecatesCats · 18/11/2020 15:21

Lots of people have written to me about trans rights from a whole variety of views. I engage honestly but clearly and welcome this conversation.

^This is how change happens, and change must happen.

Let’s just be kind^

This is completely incoherent

DialSquare · 18/11/2020 15:18

Why are TWAW mantra shouters not embarrassed? I cringe for them. They would all go into the spider's parlour wouldn't they.

WarriorsComeOutToPlayay · 18/11/2020 15:12

I actually wrote to Fleur when Rosie Duffield was getting abuse and below is a extract of her reply. She's 100% woke.

There is no conflict between trans women’s rights and cis women’s rights – both groups are harmed by structural misogyny. Women’s rights do not become meaningless when our politics recognises that trans women are women. I think that trans women are women and should therefore have the protections afforded to women – albeit that they may have an additional risk of discrimination. This does not detract from women’s rights as is sometimes characterised.

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