USA gymnastic trans inclusion policy

Kit19 · 2020-11-18T13:57:00+00:00

I think Ross Tucker is very much done with this bs now! I remember the days when he was much more “it’s a difficult issue/we need to be kind” but the TRA have of course destroyed that

bluebluezoo · 21/11/2020 20:13

Right now if she was a boy she would do better at a regional level - just because of the sheer numbers of girls at competitions at this age. (Last year 12th out of 50 odd in the region for girls, only 9 boys entered - sounds like a good way to bump her up to the top 10)

As she moves up the age groups this is less of an issue. Around 10 the really talented ones move to elite, and leave the talented-but-not-superstars at the top. Gradually over the next few years the numbers will even out and the competition get closer as some move up faster than others. Once they get to 12 it’s usually so few they get lumped in an “under 16” category.

Meanwhile the boys get bigger and stronger, so unless there are only 3 in it, she won’t have much chance.

Has she tried DMT? Often done alongside trampoline and not popular so very low numbers.

As to transgender gymnasts, i’ve only known two. One personally, one on the coach grapevine.

The vast majority of girls drop out at puberty anyway. It’s not a great hobby unless you’re in it very seriously, or you’re lucky enough to find a coach/club that will develop non-elite gymnasts over 12.

HecatesCats · 21/11/2020 18:29

@StanfordPines

That’s not what I was saying.

BlueZoo said that trans gymnasts she knew mainly dropped out at puberty.
I’m wondering how many prepubescent trans people with an interest in gymnastics there are at a hobby level.

I completely understand people who have gone through male puberty will clean up on the medal table.

Apologies, misunderstood

Mumoftwoinprimary · 21/11/2020 18:21

Hmmm - I’m tempted here. Dd (10) is a competitive trampolinist (which is under the umbrella for BG). She is good but not great if that makes sense.

Right now if she was a boy she would do better at a regional level - just because of the sheer numbers of girls at competitions at this age. (Last year 12th out of 50 odd in the region for girls, only 9 boys entered - sounds like a good way to bump her up to the top 10.)

She does a couple of other sports as well - but I think she’d still feel like a girl for them. But - technically - could I announce she is a boy for trampolining? She’d still want her very long hair and sparkly leotard but that just makes her a non conforming boy right? In fact I think she’d be a better boy for her long hair, sparkly leotard, girl’s name and the fact that she competes as a girl in other sports.

StanfordPines · 21/11/2020 18:13

That’s not what I was saying.

BlueZoo said that trans gymnasts she knew mainly dropped out at puberty.
I’m wondering how many prepubescent trans people with an interest in gymnastics there are at a hobby level.

I completely understand people who have gone through male puberty will clean up on the medal table.

HecatesCats · 21/11/2020 18:06

StanfordPines · 21/11/2020 18:02

@bluebluezoo

British gymnastics, and swimming, have been allowing transgender boys to compete as girls for years.

The kids I know gave up as puberty hit, so I don’t know if anyone has made the challenge at more advanced levels.

Out of interest how many trans gymnasts do you know of.

Surely the number of prepubescent children that are trans and interested in gymnastics must be quite small.

ChateauMargaux · 21/11/2020 17:55

Boxing is by weight category so the pubertal advantage is cancelled out a bit... not really, muscle to fat ratios, lung capacity, body shape.. the differences between male and female bodies are complex and far reaching.

PearPickingPorky · 20/11/2020 20:30

Those 2 trans men are impressive though, kudos.

That said the fields are interesting. Boxing is by weight category so the pubertal advantage is cancelled out a bit and he looks like he is definately on testosterone, he's ripped! There is an arguement for size and weight categories.

I actually don't think they are as impressive as you'd think.

A female taking testosterone will obviously pack on muscle. Men (and peri/post-pubertal boys) have denser bones than bones, so their bones are heavier. Within a very restricted weight class (if memory serves, the transmen were competing in the lowest weight categories, around 50 or 55kg?) that doesn’t allow for much muscle on a male frame. So transmen might have an advantage there because they can have a higher amount of muscle weight because their bones are lighter.

In super-low weight categories, skill and technique, rather than strength, is also more important.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 20/11/2020 19:07

Athletics would be a wash out - the field activities like shot put, javelin, discus, long jump - women may as well but bother showing up.

Al77 · 20/11/2020 18:46

Some competative people will win by any means, hence doping.

Those 2 trans men are impressive though, kudos.

That said the fields are interesting. Boxing is by weight category so the pubertal advantage is cancelled out a bit and he looks like he is definately on testosterone, he's ripped! There is an arguement for size and weight categories.

The triathalon is a lower limb heavy endurance event which women are slightly less dissadvantaged, due to smaller overall lower limb strength discrepancy compared to upper limb strength discrepancy and a greater proportion of Type 1(slow twitch dark) muscle fibers and greater capillary density leading to the ability to hold off fatigue. Still disadvantage, just not by as much as in more ballistic sports.

Good article on swimming performance being slighty less gender dimorphic: www.academia.edu/7666659/Gender_differences_in_high_level_swimming_performance

334bu · 20/11/2020 17:17

Perhaps there is a certain validation for some of the parents as well. If everyone appears to accept their child's gender change then in a way they are affirming the parent's choice to affirm their child in another gender. Also , as many of these children are very unhappy , to see them engage in a sport must be very reassuring with regard to their mental health. Still very selfish behaviour and totally unacceptable.

hesaidshesaidwhat · 20/11/2020 15:35

One thing I don't understand about all this is the involvement of the parents. I can hand on heart say that if my DS was a gymnast and decided he was trans and then wanted to complete against the girls, I would not support it at all and would tell him so. Anyone who has a child who has done sport to a high levels knows there is a significant amount of support required from parents. So it is the parents that are condoning this too, as well as I suppose the coaches etc.

andyoldlabour · 20/11/2020 15:27

Only a couple, Chris Mosier and a US boxer I think.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chris_Mosier

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patricio_Manuel

Al77 · 20/11/2020 15:22

Quinn a canadian international footballer has come out as trans and is still playing in Women's league. Presents as a man but using non binary pronouns. Strange that trans men never seem to be pushing to get into male teams.

www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/09/09/rebecca-quinn-trans-transgender-canada-womens-footballer-canadian-olympics/

Are there any examples of trans men swapping to male teams?

HecatesCats · 20/11/2020 13:52

You're right Michelle it's a pomo reboot of the same old patriarchal shite.

MichelleofzeResistance · 20/11/2020 13:07

Hecates very cynically at this point I am reminded of the script of how wonderful it will be for your sporty DD to put aside her own ambitiousness and drive and passions and dreams, and instead be kind and help to be part of a situation in which she helps male children to be happy and achieve their dreams in the exact way they would like to.

Which really is just a reiteration of the message to female children for millenia: Sorry love, but you were born with a vagina.

HecatesCats · 19/11/2020 21:33

I hope you're wrong Cara fwiw. I hate to think of my sporty DD growing up in a world where women's sport seems like a pointless venture.

CaraDuneRedux · 19/11/2020 21:23

@HecatesCats

It will be, but it's unfortunately going to require critical mass... i.e. several athletes at a major event like the Olympics and/or, sadly, a women or women getting hurt. Who knew we were so expendable?

I honestly don't think even this will do the trick. It'll be "oh, well, natural variation yadda yadda, some people from certain ethnic groups are better at weight lifting/distance running/ blah blah, this is just more of the same, just so happens that transwomen are good at most sports... but just think how nice that is for them, given that they are the most discriminated against minority ever..."

Many women will be quietly seething, but will know that to speak out is to invite being publicly pilloried. Most men won't give a shit because they've always (not so) secretly thought women's sport was a bit rubbish anyway. The woke handmaidens' idea of breaking a sweat is imagining themselves in some sort of fanfiction where they're on a par with Black Widow (who of course is an entirely fictional character who can kick ass on an equal footing with the male superheroes - and it is precisely this blurring of the boundaries between fiction and reality which has got us into this mess).

Glad my sporting days are behind me. And (so shoot me) I have a son rather than a daughter.

RandomMess · 19/11/2020 21:15

DrDavidBanner · 19/11/2020 21:03

After watching Heart of Gold and Athlete A the health and well being of gymnasts is right at the bottom of priorities for USA Gymnastics. Larry Nassar was just the tip of the iceberg and the whole thing stinks to hell.

HecatesCats · 19/11/2020 20:58

It will be, but it's unfortunately going to require critical mass... i.e. several athletes at a major event like the Olympics and/or, sadly, a women or women getting hurt. Who knew we were so expendable?

ArabellaScott · 19/11/2020 20:49

I really thought sport would be the tipping point in this.

Oh, it will. But as we know, we have to reach those tipping points over and over. Every time Hannah Mouncey is on the news complaining about not being allowed to shower with the other girls, a whole new swathe of people reach that point.

HecatesCats · 19/11/2020 19:48

look at the classic build of the female gymnasts of the 70s and 80s and then look at the build of modern top female gymnasts. It has changed from the willowy ballerina form being the top medal winning levels to powerful women with strong build because strength is so key to being able to do the tricks that win the high scores. And to push the limit of what the female body is capable of.

Such a good point Michelle, the idea that superior strength isn't an advantage doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

MichelleofzeResistance · 19/11/2020 19:45

Is there any reason why it shouldn't be perfectly possible for beam and bar routines to be added to the male competitions and open to any males that wish to compete there? That would be inclusive. It would be adding to, it would be bringing more diversity. What about a third entry category in gymnastics competition open to all with events selected by the athlete so not restricted to a binary set of events, and celebrate a whole new generation of all rounders who represent a new variety and freedom of the sport? All of this allows all athletes equal freedom without impinging on fairness of competition for females.

If the point actually is about fairness, inclusion and progress?

MichelleofzeResistance · 19/11/2020 19:39

This is the brilliant Paul Hunt, a star male gymnast who in the 80s often appeared at top competitions to do a comedy act like this during pauses in the action. The point of it was the exceptional skill which he uses to be able to make this funny, but he makes it clear that if he'd wanted to do a straight routine on bar or beam he'd have been brilliant. And he would inevitably have the superior strength that would allow the high scores to come much more easily than to a female gymnast.

It's also worth looking at the historic exceptional female gymnasts - Nadia for example, and watch some of their routines. Look at those routines compared to modern female routines. Then look at the classic build of the female gymnasts of the 70s and 80s and then look at the build of modern top female gymnasts. It has changed from the willowy ballerina form being the top medal winning levels to powerful women with strong build because strength is so key to being able to do the tricks that win the high scores. And to push the limit of what the female body is capable of.

If male athletes can just use the words to walk into female competitions and compete as females and reap the benefits, what is the point of female athletes bothering against such unfairness and disrespect for them and their work?