LGBT couple's petition to get "equal" fertility treatment

£1500 for some spunk?

What the actual fuck.

The clinics are taking the fucking piss.

@PearPickingPorky - this would not work for my girlfriend and I as we want a family together, without an extra person. I can see the advantages for a single man or woman, but not for a couple. That is just my opinion, and as stated, for some it may work well.

@PearPickingPorky - for some this may work, however it clearly cannot be a one size fits all suggestion.

A friend of mine co-parents with a gay friend, and it works very well. For others, it would not be the right way to do it.

Since being asexual is also now a Stonewall-approved sexuality, I guess the NHS will need to fund surrogates for perfectly healthy asexual people, as well as single men, and straight couples who can't conceive themselves.

Cool.

With regards to the poster upthread who rejected the idea of gay and lesbian people (either single or couples) "teaming up" to have a baby together, I don't see why this such an unworkable suggestion. Plenty of single straight women have babies with a willing male friend (using a syringe or whatever), and they co-parent. I don't see why gay or lesbian couples are against this and it also has the benefit to the child of allowing it to have a relationship with both of its biological parents.

@EmpressoftheMundane my issue is your attack on me, for something that I didn't even post and the way you insinuate I find heterosexual sex 'distasteful' which I have never even alluded to...

I have stated several times I am a lesbian who is paying privately for her own IVF fertility treatment (and going about it in a way which works for us. Even though I HAVE got fertility problems as I do not ovulate, I will still be financing my fertility treatment myself)

I have also said that the guidelines for NHS help when fertility issues have been identified is not standardised across England, which, regardless of sexual orientation etc should be the priority. In my opinion.

Please, if you are going to take umbrage at something you believe I have said, make sure you have read my responses and at least make sure it is a post I actually made.

I'm glad you're still here asnuggly and I have read all your posts and understood your position thus far.

I would suggest a read through the threads on the Donor Conception board as I think you might be interested in what some say about being donor conceived and egg sharing and feelings of guilt or worries if not contenting with the child. I think it's a useful place to see what proper say. (Some of the language is unpleasant when talking about donors as well, sometimes it sounds to me like they are talking about chickens!)

I also wondered if you had read up about accounts from adults who are donor conceived? To be fair, most stories about prolific donors originate in other countries and I'm relieved that you are taking care with this process and going to a clinic and not using a dodgy sperm donor website or Facebook group, but there are websites like We Are Donor Conceived and the Donor Conception Website that might help you consider the future for your child.

Millie Fontana has spoken about her feelings as she was raised by lesbian mothers and didn't know her father growing up. This is one presentation she made, I think it is powerful.

Many donor conceived adults feel nothing like Millie does but others do and there is no predicting the future for any child or controlling how they feel about being donor conceived.

There are many things to consider around the process, medical, ethical and emotional and physical, so I'm sure you are doing a lot of reading already!

I’m lost. If you are happily going your own way and doing your own thing on your own steam, then what is your issue?

If you had read any of my previous posts, you will see very clearly I haven't suggested the NHS pay for IVF, in fact I have stated the opposite. I have said that the NHS should NOT be responsible for paying for IVF, however I HAVE said that the priority should be for the NHS to standardise the fertility treatment available throughout the UK and abolish the 'postcode lottery' and this is regardless of sexuality etc.

I don't appreciate accusations which you have fabricated which are totally the opposite of what I have said throughout this thread.

And just to add, I will be PAYING privately for my IVF which is a personal choice and I do not expect the NHS to give me any help at all. Which I think I have said about 8 times thus far. Neither have I expressed any distaste at all for a man and women having sex in order to conceive. What a ridiculous thing to suggest.

I think clinics are getting very wealthy and completely overcharging on people's need for help with fertility issues and getting pregnant. Which is one of the reasons healthcare is a public service (and private clinics should be better regulated!).

I do agree, though, that the egg sharing schemes are tantamount to selling your eggs, and whilst it isn't direct cash payment there is a large cash value to this (would clinics be allowed to give out cars for egg donation?). I say this as someone who has egg shared myself for discounted IVF, and feel it is still exploiting those in a desperate position.

however Empress suggested that to get pregnant one should do it only by having sex with a man

No. I did not.

You are equating the NHS not paying for IVF for women who find the idea of standard human reproduction distasteful as such. The NHS solves health issues, not social issues.

You very well can get pregnant in nonstandard ways simply because you prefer it. It’s just on you to pay for it.

@EmpressoftheMundane now appears to be confused with everything that has been said thus far, and making assumptions about my beliefs and view of heterosexual sex. Not once have I insulted sex between a man and a woman, I have merely stated that as a lesbian, I do not find the idea of sex with a man desirable. I also don’t think Empress has read anything else of what I’ve written as she seems to think I expect the NHS to pay for any fertility treatment i have (as I’ve stated, we will be paying for it) and I wouldn’t expect to be given any fertility treatment as I agree, having a child is not a right, neither am I entitled to it.

@NiceGerbil there are indeed ethical considerations, and a lot of people, gay or straight, have to make these difficult decisions daily.

I think the problem is, is that the HFEA has banned sperm banks from shipping donor sperm to home addresses which means you then have to pay for a round of IUI on top of the sperm, which is really equivalent to one session of intercourse, and costs about £1500 on average. With a lower success rate, I think people decide to ‘skip’ straight to IVF as there is a higher chance of success. I would imagine if sperm was able to be shipped to private addresses, a lot more couples would do it in a way you suggest. Heck, you’d probably create nicer memories than the embryo being inserted in to your body with your legs in stirrups!

@NiceGerbil thanks for pointing out the misattribution and for recognising why I don’t want to sleep with a bloke :) absolutely bowing out now, but I’ve enjoyed a healthy conversation with you and many others about this very emotive subject.

Wish you all well!

Male factor infertility is a medical issue for the man.
The IVF/isci is to resolve the medical health issue that the man has.

It has nothing in common with people of different sexual orientations wishing to the parents, (although obviously people who are gay may also have reproductive health issues that should be treated by the NHS)

I don't really understand why two very different issues are getting lumped together.

would you suggest a woman in a heterosexual relationship have sex with a different bloke if her partner had low sperm count/male factor infertility?

No, but realistically she might have to use a different man's sperm by artificial insemination to get pregnant, if she wanted to.

What's wrong with the word fuck, out of interest? Fucking is what makes babies. Having sex sounds so. Passionless? Clinical somehow. Anyway.

She's paying for her own stuff around having a baby. No NHS cash.

Which aspersions about heterosexual sex? Anyway it probably doesn't matter.

Why the big defence of PIV hetero sex? From where I'm standing it causes way more problems than it solves in the world. Now and historically. Seems like an unusual thing to focus on.

Of course I underspent she wouldn’t want to “fuck” a bloke. But her finding it distasteful does not:

1. Mean she is entitled to IVF paid for by the NHS. Being gay isn’t an illness.
2. Mean I don’t find her aspersions about heterosexual sex insulting. I’m not saying anything rude about lesbian sex, and I expect the same curtesy.

Ok so given that she's a lesbian do you understand why there was a strong reaction against the idea she should go and fuck a bloke?

If so then we can probably get back on track! It's an interesting thread.

Agree. Thread is getting hard to follow.

'23:17EmpressoftheMundane

@NiceGerbil

I see your comment about fucking a bloke as a bit provocative tbh in the context of the thread.

I felt provoked. Seemed to be saying how distasteful it was to get pregnant by having sex with a man.'

SHE'S A LESBIAN!

does that help explain her perspective?

'23:06EmpressoftheMundane

@asnugglysnerd

An underground system operating where those who can't afford all that are potentially coerced whether financially or otherwise. Lesbian women into being fucked by men. Nice.

You come across as saying that you are entitled to a baby. And, if we don’t pay for you to have it on your own terms, it’s tantamount to sexual coercion.'

I posted that. Not snuggly.

When the misattribution starts it's a sign of a thread going bad.

Good luck Snuggly and if you want to bow out I think that's very understandable

@NiceGerbil

I see your comment about fucking a bloke as a bit provocative tbh in the context of the thread.

I felt provoked. Seemed to be saying how distasteful it was to get pregnant by having sex with a man.

Oh forgot to say

The comment from empress about having sex with a man to get pregnant if you're a lesbian ..

I don't get where you're coming from, as it were.

Have you never heard of turkey basters? It's the sperm that gets you pregnant. The man is optional, as it were.

I see your comment about fucking a bloke as a bit provocative tbh in the context of the thread.

[quote asnugglysnerd]@EmpressoftheMundane

would you suggest a woman in a heterosexual relationship have sex with a different bloke if her partner had low sperm count/male factor infertility?

I’m sorry, but I do find that suggestion quite offensive... I’m usually pretty easy going but I don’t appreciate comments like that as it feels like an attack on my sexuality.[/quote]
Well she's entitled to access to the same treatment you are. IVF after two years of trying/ 12 IUI cycles.

The NHS sis there to fix medical problems, not social ones.

The incentives to 'donate' eggs or sperm in return for IVF bothers me.

The idea that IVF for lesbians where there are no fertility issues, is a better option than using donor sperm seems. Sorry. Bonkers. Semen is not in short supply. I understand that the change in the law put men off donating. Which the clinics are seemingly trying to offset by offering free stuff to men who will do so... But I still don't get it.

And again no offence to anyone but I can't believe we've somehow reached a point where it's seen as the natural solution for a woman who wants a baby and is fertile but is not in a couple with a man should go for IVF? My understanding is that the egg harvesting is gruelling and not without risk. And a lengthy process. Then the implantation/ how many/ that sort of thing.

How is it not easier to um. Do it the old way with a vial of the necessary or 2 during fertile points?

Forgive me if I'm missing something but the whole thing seems like a massive drive to move the whole reproductive... Area? Function? Into a medicalised, involved, expensive, business. And I use business in the sense of money making.

To move it away from what it is ie a pretty bloody basic thing, the most basic thing as a species we do.

The human right to a family life is being leveraged in situations it was never meant to cover.

The science that was invented to help in certain situations, even back then to mixed feelings. Is being used in situations where it is not necessary. But may be desirable. EG to remove any genetic link between a woman who acts as a surrogate and the baby. (A very male view, that the genetics is the only link and the woman is a vessel)....

I know couples who have used ivf. I know some who have had religious relatives telling them it's wrong. I know a lesbian couple who used it. And they are all lovely and their babies are gorgeous and it's all happy.

But. There are ethical considerations. Concerns about exploitation of people both male and female to provide genetic material in return for services. There have to be question marks around how IVF could ever be seen as easier or more cost effective than insemination? That feels really odd tbh.

Even before we get to the idea that equality means surrogate mothers need to be made available...

And given that, from this thread and a quick Google. It seems that clinics are aok with saying we'll give you some free stuff if you give us some eggs/ sperm... I mean that's already pretty extreme isn't it?

@asnugglysnerd

An underground system operating where those who can't afford all that are potentially coerced whether financially or otherwise. Lesbian women into being fucked by men. Nice.

You come across as saying that you are entitled to a baby. And, if we don’t pay for you to have it on your own terms, it’s tantamount to sexual coercion.

I disagree. The NHS treats ill health. Being gay isn’t an illness. It’s an inconvenience in this case.

I’m interested by your comment however that a woman should have sex with a man in order to get pregnant... thus omitting any chance for same sex families? And also saying that if a heterosexual couple can’t conceive naturally then the woman could just try again with a different man as that is the only accepted way?

Because although I am not entitled to have a child, nor is it my right to have a child, I would love to start a family, and being gay shouldn’t stop me.

Or have I misunderstood?