NCT and surrogacy - two men tell us about the birth they wanted

Poor baby and poor mother, deprived of an essential physiological process.

I wonder how they cover the fourth stage of labour during classes which include men who are paying to deprive baby and mother of this. Must be so non inclusive and potentially triggering.

Regarding skin to skin contact, all part of their birth plan of course, who will hold the baby first.
I went to a midwifery open day with DD earlier this year (before Covid obv).
We went to some sample lectures.
One was about the advantages of skin to skin and we were shown a film used for childbirth education in India. The baby, placed on the mother's abdomen crawled up to find the breast and attach to the nipple. The tutor talked about bonding, the advantages of early breast feeding, how the hormones and the kicking of the baby help stimulate uterine contraction and reduce bleeding.
I couldn't resist it. I asked what was the point of men stripping off for skin to skin.

NONE. She confirmed it. Just men getting in on the act as usual.

www.nct.org.uk/courses-workshops/nct-antenatal-course?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyLbszKX_7AIVAuDtCh0RFgmHEAAYAiAAEgIzDfD_BwE

3/4 of the course is not relevant.

I just think it's utterly tone deaf for them to go. And mind boggling the NCT are bang up for this and more of it.

As others say, maybe they are anticipating change to law so that people can buy babies more easily in the UK.

That would make sense but they probably need to change not only the course name but also their own name.

Have the NCT considered that pregnancy is a time when women can have quite heightened emotions, that surrogacy is a contraversial and those who don't agree with it can have really strong feelings about a baby being taken from its mother as soon as it's born. A situation that in fact most humans instinctively feel is wrong when it happens on a nature program. And being confronted with this while hormones are all over the place could be pretty distressing.

I'm guessing women are supposed to a. Not be political b. Not have opinions about surrogacy c. Suppress any feelings about it and d. Be kind!

I wonder if they even considered that? By the tone of the article I'm thinking not.

It's shit tbh.

I’m uncomfortable with the use of ‘our birth plan’ because birth plans are supposed to be about what women are comfortable with happening to their body during a vulnerable time, their preferences and what they are willing to consent to or not, usually to ensure the experience isn’t traumatic to them or they have procedures done to their bodies that carry risks they are not happy with.

I’m hoping it’s just clumsy wording and they mean birth plan in the sense of who will be there if it’s a theatre birth, whether they are going to be the woman’s birth partners or wait nearby, the time after the birth.

I would really really hope they respect that, for the duration of labour and birth at least, it is solely the woman going through that process and the priority is her comfort.

It's deliberately erasing the reality of what is happening, which is that, just as in prostitution, a woman's body has been commodified for use by men. In pregnancy and birth, only one person matters, and that is the mother. She is the one whose body is changed by pregnancy, who goes through the pain of childbirth, who risks physical injury and psychological distress. But we have to pretend that none of this matters and that the two men are the real parents - to the extend that they are able to attend antenatal classes that can have almost no possible relevance for them. It's a form of gaslighting, in exactly the same way as being forced to pretend that male sexual abusers are really women is a form of gaslighting.

Finding some of these comments very harsh. The article was written to show their perspective rather than the surrogate mother. So yes it will seem centred on them. They’re getting involved in the birth of their child - what is actually wrong with that? They’re going to be parents - are they not entitled to the information any other parent has and to make friends?

Are these two men not entitled to be parents?

Fucking hell

Our wokescolder won’t return to justify such ridiculous nonsense though, they never do

And as for the idea that it’s homophobic to understand that two men by themselves cannot have a baby. Well I do wonder about some people’s critical faculties

I think it's sad to purposely create a situation denying a child a mother. Having a mother is one of life's most incredible relationships. Not always perfect, not without trials and difficulties, but a relationship like no other.

Of course children can be born and not have a mother.
It happens by accident, like a mother dying, or from terrible neglect, and the child is removed, and that is always heartbreaking for the child.
But somehow society thinks it is ethically acceptable to indulge people's desire to have a baby without a mother involved (apart from gestating and birthing it).

And this couple in the article are very cross that people innocently question where the child's mother is...the ego, the selfishness.

I feel similar to American adoption stories where babies are adopted from poor people, because God gave them a baby, instead of funding and helping the birth mother to be able to keep her baby.

I dont oppose surrogacy. But I find the idea of two men at an NCT meeting talking about their birth plan just bizarre. I am sure most people would be thinking WTF.

a couple using a surrogate

parents using surrogates

Repeated use of the words "using a surrogate" sum up why I am opposed to surrogacy. Lots of reasons actually but "using" pretty much covers it, along with erasure of the word "mother".

Either way, the notion of men turning up to antenatal classes without the pregnant woman is full on hand maid’s tale.

There's also the irony of two men being the center of parenting while the two women who have done the bulk of the emotional and physical labor have been pushed to the shadows: 1. the surrogate mother 2. the egg donor mother. Bits and parts of women used to serve men. Very Handmaid's Tale.

All of this seems topsyturvy.

Why would antenatal be welcoming parents rather than mothers and the birth supporter? Loads of women at my NHS antenatal classes had a mother or friend or daughter as the supporter.

Postnatal classes with the NHS on the other hand were about the person caring for the child, so that was a mixture of mums with babies, dads with babies and grandparents with babies.

Either way, the notion of men turning up to antenatal classes without the pregnant woman is full on hand maid’s tale.

Maybe we should be glad the NCT exists to funnel these people off into.

Should say less relevant not lucky.

Other antenatal class providers are available...dont know any that turn away parents using surrogates if they also cover looking after the baby.

NCT supports mums and dads in the 1000 days. All mums and dads. The antenatal classes encourage both to attend or single mums or 2 mums or 2 dad's. The Postnatal classes accept only mums and their babies. Most practitioners do a fantastic job supporting parents and one of the reasons is because the want to support other women.

The chances of a couple having a surrogate on an individual course are very very slim. I suppose if a woman said she didn't want to attend because there was a couple using a surrogate on a course she would get a refund. I am pretty sure that's never happened....so far.

Let's not pretend any other antenatal class provider turns away parents using surrogates.

It should be heavily weighted to the mother though.
Like pregnancy, childbirth and the post partum period is.

Fortunately I had NHS antenatal classes, where it was about the woman, not both parents. I shall be warnings others off the NCT.

At least maternity units require an actual pregnant woman as a patient, which is a greater focus on mothers than the NCT has apparently.

Well let's concentrate scare funds on the women who actually need it then.

Two men at an NCTclass ? Unnecessary, in these straitened times.

Have the NCT not met any pregnant women?

Why not?

Because my preganancy and birth plans are not some kind of spectator sport which someone who isn’t actually involved in a birth can sit in on.