Tricky: Is TERF a slur? BBC Radio 4

I listened to the tricky one last night and the 2 women wanting to include everyone in their feminism had lost track of what the point of feminism was. One even admitted she wasn't even sure feminism was the right label for her beliefs. It's more a desire to protect and centre vulnerable people or those considered vulnerable. That's socialism. Feminism centres females including right wing and wealthy women, often right wing wealthy women have helped women's rights alot because they have the time and money to focus on campaigning.

Has she founded a whole career on being photographed next to Lil OJ, wearing a t-shirt saying "will suck dick for socialism."

Wow, is that who it was?

Secret Diary of Adrian Mole Aged 13 3/4. Or it would be if she had more intellectual maturity. Or indeed intellect. Of any sort.

Why on earth would the BBC think this person could make intelligent comments on the radio? I mean, surely some sort of rudimentary quality control when deciding on guests for a panel discussion might be a good editorial policy in future.

Has she founded a whole career on being photographed next to Lil OJ, wearing a t-shirt saying "will suck dick for socialism."

I listened to the TERF one this morning. The irony of posh young voices talking about priviledged older white women was astonishing. I wonder if either of them understand that they were birthed by real women to spout this rubbish. I am sorry to be blunt but this ridiculous attitude and the airtime it is given makes me seethe. How the hell did we produce this this entitled, ignorant and ungrateful generation. Give them back the 70s.

The Sarah Keyworth programme was sensible overall. There are two sexes, gendered expectations have become attached to the sexes, and the gendered expectations are restrictive. There's much I could quibble with but overall the views existed in a rational framework.

However, at the end of the programme she trailed how in the next episode she is going to examine gender identity, which I assume is where the magical thinking will be rolled out. There are 4 programmes.

twitter.com/burlybosoms/status/1326132741268787200

''a podcast i was on talking about terfs in feminism came out today and listening to the other guests on it is making me so fucking angry that i'm going on a run''

Oh bless her, I think she realises how badly she came across.

I saw Sarah K in London a couple of years ago. Her entire show was gender critical and utterly hilarious. I don’t know how she can’t see we’re all saying the same thing.

Also “women have been afforded a level of security from the patriarchy through all the years we’ve been fighting…for our rights and that comes through the oppression of others because it exists within this framework.”

This is the most presumptious bit. These young women are not part of the "all the years we've been fighting" as they were not actually alive or productive adults at the time. They should refrain from claiming any involvement other than being the fortunate beneficiaries of the work of others before them.

Lecturing the women that have done this about "fear mongering" is mouthing the words men have trained them to say.

You can only stand back and laugh at them.

So Sarah Keyworth believes there is such a thing as "male genitalia"? And claims that "no-one who advocates for trans rights is denying that biological sex exists"? (By that logic, then, anyone who denies biological sex exists is not advocating for trans rights - I'll bear that in mind...)

More seriously, how the hell can someone - seemingly in all seriousness - say in one sentence that 'X is different from males because they like pink' and then go on to say 'the things that make up what we understand to be gender - [...] blue/pink - is so loaded with expectation that it is toxic and damaging'.

How can you not follow your own train of logic for more than one sentence? and do people genuinely understand 'blue/pink' to "be gender"? I've read a bit about gender (still not sure what it is) and generally speaking the idea that it's colours is... a bit offensive?

I listened to the TERF one. I thought the two participants who objected to the term 'cis-woman', Dominique and (especially) Bec, were really good.

The other two, Esther and Ruby, just came across as being incredibly poorly informed. They possessed the typical naivety/ ignorance of many young lib fems regarding the violence directed towards women by men (JK Rowling is “capitalising off this fear-mongering, which yeah there might be valid concerns but it’s minuscule, and hypothetical at the moment, I think that other journalists like Janice Turner and Julie Bindel and that kind of ilk, are really jumping on to this idea and installing fear into the women of this country”) Yes, Julie Bindel is a scaremonger.

Also “women have been afforded a level of security from the patriarchy through all the years we’ve been fighting…for our rights and that comes through the oppression of others because it exists within this framework.” Rejoice sisters! We’ve achieved equality now and we should extend our good fortune towards others who are in greater need.

I tried listening to the Are Pronouns Important one but I couldn’t cope with all the tedious self-absorption.

They have really had a number done on them. They seem to be fighting shadows.

I found it high on emoting and low on coherent sense too.

The child surely is welcome to dress in and play with whatever they like: any 'coding' is in the mind of the perceiver and they need to unstereotype themselves, not try to shift the child's identity to better fit themselves. The fact is that a male child will always be a male child, whether they grow up to choose to name themselves as male or as a TW, and pretending this is not the case isn't a kindness. Shunning people who point this out in defence of women's rights is ridiculous.

I don't know @Escapeplanning I know loads of people who "cross dressed" as children, self expression is how we grow. Society seems to be regressing.

What is that woman saying? That she wants cross dressing to be embedded into a child's psyche as an identity and anyone not believing that the child actually becomes the opposite sex for all purposes as a result is bad. JKR in particular?

I think what I took from this episode is that for many women Feminism is a cool badge to wear but not much else. They talk about Patriarchy like it's some seperate entity, like defering to a man and changing your language to make men feel better is not a fundamental part of it.

You surely have to be brainwashed to believe that nonsense. I mean, surely?

That said though, I'm sure there are plenty disseminating it who don't believe it but gain in some way from appearing to.

twitter.com/sarahkcomedy/status/1269626751468126208

There's a real corker coming from Radio 4 tonight:

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000p7b2

In her first stand-up series for Radio 4, Edinburgh Best Newcomer Nominee, Chortle Best Newcomer and Winner of the Herald Angel Award, Sarah Keyworth explores her personal journey with gender fluidity.

If you're worried about pre-judging, let me do it for you:

Good grief the ignorance is astounding

I understand the ignorance as they have been taught this piffle deliberately in the academy whilst most 2nd wavers were actually gaining ground in business and political life, all of which is taken for granted and considered not good enough as it is characterised as white by them.

What I don't understand is how pathetically submissive they sound. I suppose it's because I'm used to listening and working with successful second wave generation women in business and politics that have lost any wimpy insipid submissiveness years ago. I hope those women lose it too.

As a genuine second wave feminist from way back, I am disappointed by the 'feminism lite' messages flying about that seem to suggest feminism ought to be all about accommodating everyone else's needs and being calm, quiet and compliant. Looking at you UNWomen.

That's the sort of thinking we were all busily overturning in the 70s and beyond!

I'm listening to the Karen episode now. Some good points being made

"I meant women" POW

I love this woman, and I love how she's not afraid to speak the truth.

Apparently trans has come as a bit of a shock to older second wave feminists.

That is very funny, given they were the first group to raise concerns now, the group who were writing about males who identify as trans in the 70s, but they were shocked, I tell you shocked...

Good grief the ignorance is astounding. And way to go to make second wavers the villains in this drama. Passive villains with no agency at that.

Does this come from a base assumption that all women of a certain age who oppose transgender ideology and legislation must have been second wave feminists? And the ageist assumptions that women of this age cannot possibly be active in effecting social change?

Measured against the female population as a whole, there really were not that many actual second wave feminists back then. There are far fewer now.

There were of course many more women agreeing with the aims of the movement, especially the liberal feminist movement led by women like Friedan and Steinem. But today's libfems are largely cheerleaders of the ideology. However, that may be too difficult a concept to grasp if you honestly believe only the young campaign for change.

In my view, the feminist resistance to transgender ideology and legislation was mainly started by (often lesbian) radfems, including radical feminists of the second wave and they were decidedly in the minority then.

Will they do a programme about rohypnol too?

You know, for "balance"...