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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

A nice man molested me the other night ***Content warning*** Title edited by MNHQ at OP's request

60 replies

bloggeryblog · 07/11/2020 13:59

I don't write all that often. It needs tweaking-but does it get a message across? Am I sounding too 'woke'?

TIA :)

What a stupid thing to say, huh?

Nice men don’t molest women! Nice men don’t want to upset anyone. They know It’s wrong to touch a woman sexually without consent. Hell if a man touched their wife/girlfriend/daughter/female friend like that, there’d be hell to pay! How dare he!

No man with an ounce of respect for women does things like that do they? They hear the females in their life relate stories about it happening, or see it on TV and react to it with contempt and shock, what a scumbag! Not a nice man, nice men don’t do things like this.

Apart from when they do.

This happened to me in my own house.

The man who did it is someone I regard as a friend. Quite a new one but, my family have known him longer.I don’t know many people around here. This man is someone I pay to do work I need doing, and we got along, and me and my partner and this man’s then-girlfriend all met for drinks one night a while ago and had a good time. I learned he did a pub quiz and me and my family went and did it. In short, he became someone we sometimes liked to hang out with, my other half liked him too. All good.

For a bit of a synopsis of this man, he has a great job. A great relationship with his adult children. He is well liked, friendly, popular, personable, generous, generally thought of as lovely.

I learned recently he had had some bad news. He’s lost a close family member. I paid my condolences and felt for him. He came around for a coffee and me and her sympathised and said pop in any time. So when he asked if the kettle was on the other day I said ‘sure’.

Only I’d ran out of coffee. I also realised I needed to walk the dog, and said rather than coffee shall we go have a couple of pints.. It’s lovely weather, why not.

After that we walked back to my house and he came in for another drink. After a while and a chat, I said okay I am sorry to end the evening here but I really must go to bed. I am tired, I’ve been up since 4:30 am. I was tipsy and did not want to drink more. I told him to see himself out, or sleep in the spare room if he wanted.

I had no reason why I should have believed I was in any danger.

Looking back, the slightly tipsy and very tired me must have had her guard up.. I don’t remember it being a conscious thing, but I didn’t undress. Why not? I guess because I don’t trust men fully no matter what.

I woke up some time later, with a hand up my top at the front and two wandering hands caressing me. I hate to use that word, but literally that’s what they were doing.

What they were ACTUALLY doing, was molesting me. Touching my breasts and upper body without my consent, while I was sleeping. Unconscious. Unable to give (or not give) consent. I did not react. I pretended to be asleep. I was not shocked (sadly!), or scared, and simply froze and said nothing. This man had come upstairs, seen me asleep, and somehow thought this was an okay thing to do. The hands then pinched my nipples, hard. Causing me to screw my eyes tighter closed in pain, and then they stopped. I remained still until I felt him move away and heard him leave the room. My main thought process at the time was

‘Oh for fuck’s sake.’

This is the point. I wasn’t traumatised, upset or deeply affected in any way by this incident. I wasn’t shocked either-I’m still not. Why? Because to me, this has become something men do. I sort of expect it. Even ones we see as nice people. They don’t do it because they’re not nice, they do it because THEY THINK IT’S OKAY. The way this man was touching me, at least until he hurt me, was in a way I would like my girlfriend to touch me. But when it’s none consensual, unprovoked and unwanted (and in my case, from the wrong gender) it is not a nice feeling. And It’s very wrong.

When this happened, I posted about it on a large forum I frequent using various different usernames. I like to keep anonymous online most of the time. I wanted strangers unbiased opinions, and I got them. What I found disturbing but not shocking, was that so many women responded by sharing their experiences of when something similar (or worse), had happened to them. This sort of thing is not uncommon. I knew that already, and they affirmed it.

As I write about it, I recognise my own symptoms of social conditioning, deeply internalised theories I have, which make me want to blame myself.

This sort of thing.

‘I should have made him leave before I went to bed’

‘I shouldn’t have got tipsy around a man I don’t know so well’

‘I shouldn’t go out for a drink with a man by myself, he may have read more into it’

‘I shouldn’t have dressed the way I was’ (I was wearing a tight top and a short skirt, albeit with thick tights and flat boots, I wasn’t dressed especially provocative, not that it matters).

There are some things about this situation, generated by me, that if I had done differently would have ensured this couldn’t happen. If I hadn’t have ran out of coffee, I wouldn’t have been tipsy and perhaps would have been more guarded. When I am already tired, alcohol just makes me sleepy, maybe I shouldn’t have had any.

If I hadn’t have let him come in for another drink.

If I hadn’t have been a friendly or sympathetic person.

If I had have locked my bedroom door.

If I hadn’t have made friends with this man in the first place.

If I wasn’t a person who appreciates friendship and likes to enjoy company of people I get on with

I can go on forever with this.

However, the reality is, what he did was very wrong. It would still be wrong if I was wearing a PVC minidress, a push up bra and stilettos. It would still be wrong if I was pissed out of my head. It would still be wrong if I had have flirted with him all night. It would still be wrong if I had have fancied him.

Another thing worth mentioning is, I actually told a male friend about this. His reaction was;

‘Well you invited him in, he probably thought he was in there’.

Aside from being disgusting, this is a huge part of the problem. There are people out there who believe that it is a woman’s responsibility, to stop men from behaving like this.

In this particular case (I must stress I don’t apply this to all such situations) I also think he did it because he fancies me. He fancies me because he finds me attractive, and he thinks this means he is allowed to touch me. This again is, a huge part of the problem. I know why he finds me attractive. I have a stereotypically attractive look, blonde hair, I dress in a way he likes, I keep myself in reasonable shape.

He thinks because of that, I DO IT FOR MEN.

And this is what makes him think It’s okay. This type of thinking (in my opinion) is Neanderthal, unintelligent, and dangerous. I don’t think he would have done this if I was butch, overweight, or his idea of ugly or unnatractive in any way.

It doesn’t occur to some men that a woman who makes an effort with her looks in a way that they like, do it for any reason other than because she wants to attract men. And if she wants to attract men, touching her is okay isn’t it? That’s what she wants!

No.

And if she does she will make it clear.

In my case, the above assumption is made even more bizarre, but more blatant due to the fact this man ‘knows’ I am a lesbian. I put ‘knows’ in inverted commas because, this is irrelevant to him. My sexuality is erased because he believes his wants and assumptions trump it. 100% . He believes my appearance negates this. I look like I do for men, no matter what I say. What I say about who I am, doesn’t count. My girlfriend doesn’t count.

Do I think he would have done this if I was straight?

Absolutely.

If I was dating a man?

Probably. But the point is I’m not. This is because I don’t want men to touch me ever. I obviously sympathize with anyone this sort of thing has happened to, regardless of their gender, sexuality or any aspect of who they are. But I believe the fact that It’s obvious and often made obvious to him that I’m not into men and don’t want them to touch me, makes what he did worse.

I was unable to consent because I was asleep. He knows this. This man isn’t stupid.

If any men read this, I hope you read it and think ‘What a wanker’ and not ‘Ugh, what he did wasn’t THAT bad’.

But if it is the latter, you know what, I agree with you, it wasn’t. I am not traumatised by it or especially upset even. I am not in shock. I am not injured or incapacitated by it.

That’s not a good thing. I should be traumatised by it. I should be shocked. I should be overly upset about it because it should be the sort of thing that’s unheard of and never happens.

The reason it isn’t ‘THAT bad’ is because we think ‘He could have done worse’.

I also have absolutely no doubt in my mind, that had I put loose pjamas on, or slept naked, he would have done ‘A lot worse’.

Men, please do your gender a favour and don’t do things like this. If you’ve read this and are thinking ‘I did something like that once’ or ‘He didn’t do anything so bad!’ Have a think about this.

This could be reported to the police. You could lose your job

You could lose your friends

You would be made to look like a wanker to anyone who finds out you’re labelled as a sexual predator.

Your reputation could be tarnished.

Your daughters could find out

Your female friends could find out

Does this illustrate to you that It’s wrong? I won’t go down the route of It’s illegal because It’s wrong because frankly some things are illegal that if pressed I might think shouldn’t be.

But it is illegal regardless. What he did was a crime. And it has reinforced my misandry which I struggle with already because of many experiences with men me and my female peers have had.

I don’t want to dislike men. I don’t want to label them all as the same. I don’t want to be afraid of them, careful around them and disappointed in male friends like I am with this one, who I will now never give my business to again, socialise with again, or sympathise with again. I don’t want to be a man-hating lesbian. I have men in my life who I love.

But when they do things like this, it makes things difficult.

Thank you for reading.

OP posts:
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VulvaPerson · 10/11/2020 18:27

Yes this has happened to me a few times. And responses from male friends have generally been along the lines of - well he didn't really do anything wrong, you could have stopped him. He might have thought you liked it, why did you pretend to still be asleep instead of saying no. Etc.

Even worse than random men doing this, and this is the first time I have said this to anyone..is my husband went through a phase of it.

I know some will say thats different as its your husband and such. And maybe it is. However, I told him I found it creepy and did not like it, and he kept doing it. Once I told him to stop, he started just pretending to be asleep when doing i, but I know he wasn't actually asleep as basically, I would pretend to be waking up and he would stop immediately, where if he was asleep, he wouldn't do that surely. Yes often I just kept pretending to be asleep, which might have made it worse, however even when I slapped his hand away, this didn't stop it happening again the next night.

He also started putting MY hands on his dick while I was asleep, so he could say that I do it too and see, people do it without knowing Hmm Unfortunately for that excuse, it would wake me up when he purposely moved my hands, so I knew it was bollocks.

Put me way off sex actually, and am still off now really. really creeped me out a lot and it continuing long after i told him I didn't like it, made it all worse.

Seems to have stopped now. I started wearing underwear to bed, and kept telling him it was creepy. Eventually, after maybe 6 months of it, it ended.

Yes I know I let it go on too long. Yes I know its wrong. Yes I maybe should leave him. I know. Just, my heads a bit up my arse with it all now. But the whinging about sex, when sometimes him touching me weirds me out as I just remember the nights of it being when I was 'asleep', is a massive problem now.

S00LA · 10/11/2020 13:28

@bloggeryblog

I we always look back at ourselves and worry what we did to “ give the wrong impression “ or “ lead then on “. We are so trained by our culture into thinking that it’s women’s job to manage men’s wants and needs and to control their sexuality in some way. We feel that deep down it must have been out fault in some way. Even we know that’s bollocks.

As I read your article I was reminded that nearly every time I’ve been sexually assaulted was when I was “ being kind” to a man.

I was raped by a “friend “ at his home after the funeral of a mutual friend . I was comforting him .

I was Assaulted by a tradesman who asked me for a lift home after he had done some work on my flat. When I pushed him off he actually got out the car and smashed the car with his bag of tools.

Assaulted by another male “ freind “ after listening to him talk about his traumatic break up with his ex.

The list goes on. I’m hardly ever #bekind to men anymore, not one on one anyway. I don’t ever place myself in that situation.

I don’t care if people think I’m a man hating straight woman. I’m careful around men - colleagues, extended family members etc - and I don’t socialise with them alone.

I work in a mostly male environment and I’m friendly and professional but that’s all.

I don’t want to be afraid of them either. But it’s Men who created this, not me. The men who did it and the men who do nothing to stop male violence and male entitlement. The men who laugh when their mates talk of women in a degrading way and make rape jokes. The porn users. The women who defend them.

Men whose feelz are hurt when they read about women’s reactions to male violence . The NAMALTers.

If they are not part of the solution then they are part of the problem.

bloggeryblog · 10/11/2020 12:56

S00LA thank you-food for thought. I 100% know straight women do not deserve this sort of thing any more than lesbians-I guess I should have made it clearer in the blog, and I was projecting a little I guess-feeling that, he couldn't get away with saying he thought I would want it, because of my sexuality.

After this occurred, he did say to a peer of mine that 'we just had a cuddle nothing happened' implying that I'd consented to something (a 'cuddle' which I absolutely did not)! so I suppose that's where I got that from.

I will edit it-and I will do another blog based on these comments at some point soon.

OP posts:
S00LA · 10/11/2020 12:42

He said it isn't a sexual act to do this, more so a controlling one formed from entitlement

This is very insightful and I’m glad you included it. I agree with 98% of what you have written but I disagree with your comments that he wouldn’t have done it If you were butch or overweight.

He didn’t do it because of your appearance. He did it because of his own sense of entitlement . Older women, fat women , ugly women get abused , assaulted and raped the same as young and beautiful ones.

Men sexually assault and rape frail old women with dementia in care homes. They even assault women in PVS and babies and toddlers.

It’s not about the women’s appearance, it’s about the mans belief that if he wants something, he should have it. It’s about power and control, not about sex.

And it’s not worse because you are a lesbian and you don’t want any man to touch you. He wasn’t doing it because he thought YOU would enjoy it. He did it because he enjoyed it.

Just because a straight woman has consented for one man to touch her, doesn’t mean she has consented for all men to touch her. Straight women don’t enjoy being sexually assaulted any more than lesbians.

Sexnotgender · 10/11/2020 12:31

I’m so sorry this happened to you, he’s a predator hiding behind his good guy persona.

bloggeryblog · 10/11/2020 12:27

I hope you're ok, op. As I was reading your post, a voice in my head was saying "she shouldn't have let him stay, she should have made sure he was gone...etc etc". Not once did that little voice say "He shouldn't have done that." I'm a radical feminist and I know that sexual abusers are the only cause of sexual abuse or assault. The little voice in my head, however, is a sort of victim-blamimg abuse-avoidant-prepper. I apologise on her behalf - she's been trying to protect me from men for 30 years and she's a bit set in her ways.

i hear this so much. I've put it onto a proper blog site now if anyone wants it.

demmiecynic.wordpress.com/2018/09/17/a-nice-guy-molested-me-the-other-night/

OP posts:
Jennarotersy · 10/11/2020 12:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

bloggeryblog · 09/11/2020 14:14

@YankeeDad thank you for your reply.I believe a PP was right in saying that we need men to share their views on this sort of behaviour, to make more men stand up to it and deem it okay to stand up for women. Of course this sort of thing happens to men too, just nowhere near as often.

OP posts:
RuffleCrow · 08/11/2020 21:58

I hope you're ok, op. As I was reading your post, a voice in my head was saying "she shouldn't have let him stay, she should have made sure he was gone...etc etc". Not once did that little voice say "He shouldn't have done that." I'm a radical feminist and I know that sexual abusers are the only cause of sexual abuse or assault. The little voice in my head, however, is a sort of victim-blamimg abuse-avoidant-prepper. I apologise on her behalf - she's been trying to protect me from men for 30 years and she's a bit set in her ways.

ArabellaScott · 08/11/2020 21:57

As the OP says, sexual abuse and assault is so common it's easier to learn to emotionally shrug it off than think or talk about it.

Which is why I didn't really get 'me too' - I am far more surprised to hear a woman who hasn't been sexually assaulted than one who has.

I daresay we end up carrying an amount of anger and hurt, but hey, if we bring it up we're 'weaponising our trauma' so best shut up and get over It, right?

YankeeDad · 08/11/2020 21:47

Yes, I am male.

I am also still retching at the thought of what this guy did.

And shocked. And sad to hear from so many women who are not shocked, because this sort of behaviour happens way too often.

hellotoday27 · 08/11/2020 19:14

bloggeryblog
I think you're right that it's not always the ones you expect.
I do think we should be throwing the problem back at men to support the females in their lives. The most effective deterrent I've seen is when repugnant predatory behaviour has been called out by other men and I have seen this done in several cases. I don't mean vigalante behaviour but when other men calmly support and believe when women tell them about abuse.

bloggeryblog · 08/11/2020 18:58

giletrouge thank you.

I am quite academic but very 'lapsed' with my writing.

Yankee I assume you're male?
Thank you.

Interestingly, I asked another male friend about this, (and yes, the aforementioned one is now out of my life!) one I love dearly although he has a reputation as a bit of a 'ladies man' for various reasons, mainly, I gather from just being good looking, and not against casual sex although I know he actually longs for a relationship.I asked him what would he have done in this situation.

He said he may have checked on me before leaving, if he thought I'd had too much to drink (although I really hadn't) but then he would have either slept on the sofa if he was over the limit, or would have gone home. He said it isn't a sexual act to do this, more so a controlling one formed from entitlement. This again I suppose reinforces that it is not the ones some may expect, who do this.

OP posts:
YankeeDad · 08/11/2020 17:15

The behaviour by that guy is just total, utter and vile bullshit! I’m not a fighter, but I want to punch him right now.

I’m sorry this happened.

It was absolutely not your fault.

This guy clearly deserves to get reported to police and to end up on the sex offender’s register, or in jail, or both.

giletrouge · 08/11/2020 17:08

Your blog looks really well-written and important, I'm def going to read it properly later. Just putting this stuff into articulate adult language is an acheivement (I know, because I've been trying to myself), so well done.

bloggeryblog · 08/11/2020 17:01

giletrouge thank you.

I probably do! I am pretty numb as a rule, in general to be honest!

I've re-written it. Please feel free to share if you feel it would help anybody, male or female.

A nice man molested me the other night.

What a stupid thing to say, huh?

Nice men don’t molest women! Nice men don’t want to upset anyone?
Nice is a bit of an ambiguous term so I’ll define what I mean by it for the purpose of this blog.
Nice means not nasty, nor sinister. A nice person isn’t a person you’d avoid or be wary of. A nice person is someone ‘normal’, has friends, a job, a nice family, a lot of friends, respect in the community. Some things about some people have an almost unanimous wariness factor-nice people are those who have none of the things that give us any reason to be wary.
Nice men-they know It’s wrong to touch a woman sexually without consent, of course.
Hell if a man touched their wife/girlfriend/daughter/female friend like that, there’d be hell to pay! How dare he!

No man with an ounce of respect for women does things like that do they? They hear the females in their life relate stories about it happening, or see it on TV and react to it with contempt and shock, what a scumbag! Not a nice man, nice men don’t do things like this.

Apart from when they do.

This happened to me in my own house.
I must note that this blog was inspired by Kathleen Stock’s article, which I will cite at the end. Like her, this is not written in a bid for sympathy (I am absolutely fine).

The man who did it is someone I regarded as a friend. Quite a new one but, my family have known him longer and he’s worked as an affiliate of my Mother’s for years
.I don’t know many people around here, having moved recently. This man is someone I pay to do work I need doing, and we got along, and me and my partner and this man’s then-girlfriend all met for drinks one night a while ago and had a good time. I learned he did a pub quiz and me and my family went and did it. In short, he became someone we sometimes liked to hang out with, my other half liked him too. All good.

For a bit of a synopsis of this man, he has a great, prestigious job, and a fantastic relationship with his adult children. He is well liked, well known, friendly, popular, personable, generous, largely thought of as lovely.

I learned recently he had had some bad news. He’s lost a close family member. I paid my condolences and felt for him. He came around for a coffee and me and her sympathised and said pop in any time. So when she was working away, and he asked if the kettle was on the other day I said ‘sure’.

Only I’d ran out of coffee. I also realised I needed to walk the dog, and said rather than coffee shall we go have a couple of pints. It’s lovely weather, why not.

After that we walked back to my house and he came in for another drink. After a while and a chat, I said okay I am sorry to end the evening here but I really must go to bed. I am tired, I’ve been up since 4:30 am. I was tipsy and did not want to drink more. I told him to see himself out, or sleep in the spare room if he wanted.

I had no reason why I should have believed I was in any danger.

Looking back, the slightly tipsy and very tired me must have had her guard up.
I don’t remember it being a conscious thing, but I didn’t undress. Why not? I guess because for whatever reason, I don’t trust men fully no matter what.

I woke up some time later, with a hand up my top at the front and two wandering hands caressing me. I hate to use that word, but literally that’s what they were doing.

What they were ACTUALLY doing, was molesting me. Touching my breasts and upper body without my consent, while I was sleeping. Unconscious. Unable to give (or not give) consent. I did not react. I pretended to be asleep. I was not shocked (sadly!), or scared, and simply froze and said nothing. This man had come upstairs, seen me asleep, and somehow thought this was an okay thing to do. The hands then pinched my nipples, hard. Causing me to screw my eyes tighter closed in pain, and then they stopped. I remained still until I felt him move away and heard him leave the room. My main thought process at the time wasn’t what some may imagine.
It was ‘Oh for fuck’s sake.’

And this has a point. I wasn’t traumatised, upset or deeply affected in any way by this incident. I wasn’t shocked either-I’m still not. Why? Because to me, this has become ‘just something men do’. I sort of expect it and have grown to accept it.

Upon this first happening, I posted about it on a large forum I frequent. I wanted unbiased opinions. The replies did not shock me-they encompassed a lot of women responding by sharing their experiences of when something similar (or worse), had happened to them. So many of us, just in response to one incident on one day. How many of us has this happened to? This sort of thing is not uncommon. I knew that already, and they affirmed it. My ‘oh for fuck’s sake’ actually meant the same. Yes It wasn’t great, and what I was actually thinking as the thought developed was ‘great, another one. Another male I can’t trust-another man I can’t socialise with. Another job I have to do or find someone else to do because I can’t use him any more’.
Acceptance by women that this is just ‘something that happens’ probably perpetuates it happening and despite this, I firmly believe that it is absolutely not our responsibility as women, to do anything about it.
The point I try to make is, men who do this sort of thing aren’t necessarily creepy oddities in flashers macs down dark allies, loners without jobs or families whom we wouldn’t ever let into our space or lives, the frowny, toothless weirdo you see in the beer garden by himself every day (who might actually be a perfectly decent person).
‘Normal’ men, those we think of as nice, do this. Our brothers, colleagues, friends, fathers.

They do it because THEY THINK IT’S OKAY. The way this man was touching me, at least until he hurt me, was in a way I would like my girlfriend to touch me. But when it’s none consensual, unprovoked and unwanted (and in my case, from the wrong gender) it is not a nice feeling at all. And it’s very wrong.

Another point to this blog is, as I write about this experience, I recognise my own symptoms of dangerous social conditioning, certainly not unique to my experience as a female, the deeply internalised theories I have, which make me want to blame myself.

This sort of thing;

‘I should have made him leave before I went to bed’

‘I shouldn’t have got tipsy around a man I don’t know so well’

‘I shouldn’t go out for a drink with a man by myself, he may have read more into it’
‘I shouldn’t have let him in the house for another drink-maybe he was disappointed that I didn’t want anything sexual’

‘I shouldn’t have dressed the way I was’ (I was wearing a tight top and a short skirt, albeit with thick tights and flat boots, I wasn’t dressed especially provocative, not that it matters).

There are also some things about this situation, generated by me, that if I had done differently would have ensured this couldn’t happen. If I hadn’t have ran out of coffee, I wouldn’t have been tipsy and perhaps would have been more guarded.
When I am already tired, alcohol just makes me sleepy, maybe I shouldn’t have had any.

If I hadn’t have let him come in for another drink.

If I hadn’t have been a friendly or sympathetic person.

If I had have locked my bedroom door.

If I hadn’t have made friends with this man in the first place.
If I’d have said no to him accompanying me anywhere without my partner (whom presents as masculine) for protection.

If I wasn’t a person who appreciates friendship and likes to enjoy company of people I get on with.
If I wasn’t trying to make friends in a new area.

I can go on forever with this. And I know I am far from the only woman whose brain comes up with such things.

However, the reality is, what he did was very wrong.

And it would still be wrong if I were straight.
It would still be wrong if I had gone out wearing a PVC mini-dress, a push up bra and stilettos.
It would still be wrong if I had have flirted with him all night.
It would still be wrong if I had have fancied him.
It would still be wrong if he was my husband.
It would still be wrong if we’d been out all night and I was pissed out of my head.

Another thing worth mentioning is, I actually told a male friend about this. His reaction was;

‘Well you invited him in, he probably thought he was in there’.

Aside from being disgusting, this is a huge part of the problem. There are people out there who believe that it is a woman’s responsibility, to stop men from behaving like this. And it absolutely is not.

In this particular case (I must stress I absolutely don’t apply this to all such situations, sometimes the opposite occurs!) I also think he did it because he finds me attractive, and he thinks this means he is allowed to touch me. This again is, a huge part of the problem. I know why he finds me attractive. I have a stereotypically attractive look, I’m relatively young, I have long blonde hair, I dress in a way he likes, I keep myself in reasonable shape.

He thinks because of that, I DO IT FOR MEN.

And this is what makes him think It’s okay. This type of thinking (in my opinion) is archaic, unintelligent, and dangerous. I don’t think he would have done this if I was butch, overweight, or his idea of ugly or unattractive in any way.

It doesn’t occur to some men that a woman who makes an effort with her looks in a way that they like, do it for any reason other than because she wants to attract men. And if she wants to attract men, touching her is okay isn’t it? That’s what she wants!

No.

And if she does she will make it clear.
As females, we should be permitted to dress and look however we wish. We are, literally speaking, but we should be able to look how we feel at our best, without it giving men the assumption that we are their property. If a woman is a male’s idea of attractive, she is no more there for male entertainment than one who isn’t.

In my case, the above assumption is made even more bizarre, but more blatant due to the fact this man ‘knows’ I am a lesbian. I put ‘knows’ in inverted commas because, this is irrelevant to him. My sexuality is erased because he believes his wants and assumptions trump it. 100%. He believes my appearance negates this. I look like I do for men, no matter what I say and demonstrate in my behaviour. What I say about who I am, doesn’t count. My girlfriend doesn’t count.

Do I think he would have done this if I was straight?

Absolutely.

If I were dating a man?

Probably. But the point is I’m not. This is because I don’t want men to touch me ever. I obviously sympathize with anyone this sort of thing has happened to, regardless of their gender, sexuality or any aspect of who they are. But I believe the fact that It’s obvious and often made obvious to him that I’m not into men and don’t want them to touch me, makes what he did worse.

I was unable to consent because I was asleep. He knows this. This man isn’t stupid.

If any men read this, I hope you read it and think ‘What a wanker’ and not ‘Ugh, what he did wasn’t THAT bad’.

But if it is the latter, you know what, I agree with you, it wasn’t. I am not traumatised by it or especially upset even. I am not in shock. I am not injured or incapacitated by it.

And this is not a good thing. I should be traumatised by it. I should be shocked. I should be overly upset about it because it should be the sort of thing that’s unheard of and never happens.

The reason we think it ‘isn’t that bad’ is because we’re also thinking ‘He could have done worse’ or ‘that’s nothing, my friend went through a much more violet assault’.

And I have absolutely no doubt in my mind, that had I put loose pyjamas on, or slept naked, he would have done ‘A lot worse’.

Men, please do your gender a favour and don’t do things like this. If you’ve read this and are thinking ‘I did something like that once’ or ‘He didn’t do anything so bad!’ Have a think about this.

This could be reported to the police. You could lose your job

You could lose your friends

You would be made to look like a wanker to anyone who finds out you’re labelled as a sexual predator.

Your reputation could be tarnished.

Your daughters could find out.
Your wife could find out.

Your female friends could find out.

Does this illustrate to you that It’s wrong? I won’t go down the route of It’s illegal because It’s wrong, or wrong because it’s illegal because frankly some things are illegal that if pressed I might think shouldn’t be.

But it is illegal regardless. What he did was a crime.
And it has reinforced my misandry which I struggle with already because of many experiences with men me and my female peers have had. Women don’t want to distrust men.

We don’t want to dislike men. It doesn’t make our lives easier to do this.
I don’t want to label men as all the same. I don’t want to be afraid of them, careful around them and disappointed in male friends like I am with this one, who I will now never give my business to again, socialise with again, or sympathise with again. I don’t want to be a man-hater. I have men in my life who I love.

But when they do things like this, it makes things difficult.

Thank you for reading.

kathleenstock.com/noticing-reality/

OP posts:
giletrouge · 08/11/2020 16:30

OP I know you're saying you're ok but you sound alarmingly calm, which in itself is/can be a symptom of shock.
Yet another horrible experience at the hands of a predatory man. Please take good care of yourself.
Flowers

Caroncanta · 08/11/2020 15:58

Good post op. I hope you are ok Flowers

SunsetBeetch · 08/11/2020 15:21

@TreestumpsAndTrampolines

Fucker. That attitude of just doing something because you want to, even though it's a human being you're doing it to is so pervasive

And I also get the not being traumatised by it - that it's just so not unexpected that it's just more of the same. I feel the same about my rape, about the various unwanted gropes and kisses I've accumulated over the years - just resigned to it, barely even angry these days.

Yes, this. Flowers
Antibles · 08/11/2020 15:11

So sorry this happened to you OP. It's enraging.

To add to what PPs have said, the other thing I find upsetting is when friends and family don't want to hear that the 'nice man' they know is actually an abusive bastard. It's inconvenient both for their psyche and for their social lives. I have had people swerve away conversationally when I tried to tell them something about my partner of the time. It was very obvious and very, very disappointing. They just didn't want to hear it. None so blind as those who will not see.

bloggeryblog · 08/11/2020 14:11

invisible that is exactly the point I was hoping this blog would make..i actually think I'm going to rewrite it to have it made a bit clearer and easier for people to understand what I am meaning. We do 'other' them, it is difficult for people (especially women) to think of men they've previously thought of as decent, to be the sort who would also be disrespectful, ingenious and violent. We try to find excuses, often turning the matter around on ourselves.

madwife that is horrendous and I wonder if my perpetrator had similar ideas.
hello maybe not the safest but the outcome for you was a success. What an awful man :(

OP posts:
hellotoday27 · 08/11/2020 14:09

Sorry, meant to add that he came across as such a 'nice man' and he was so shocked when I accused him of attempted rape.
He was so delusional about his behaviour

hellotoday27 · 08/11/2020 14:02

I had this happen. Long story but he ended up having to stay over. Wouldn't have allowed it normally but a series of events happened and I ended up in the house alone. Thought it would be ok as most blokes are fine.

He came up to my room and did exactly the same as happened to the OP. I froze as well for some time as well. I was working out escape routes and ideas and then he said something about me enjoying it and I lost it completely and went off the rails screaming at him explaining he had no idea about women and any man with any decency would realise that I wasn't responding to him normally. Not sure why I suddenly flipped and to be honest it probably wasn't the safest thing to do. However, in this case it embarrassed him and he stormed out and drove home (over the limit).

The next day he came round with a letter that ranted and rambled for about 6 pages (and he clearly had been in a temper as he'd pressed so hard on the paper you could read it like braille). Luckily I wasn't alone and the others laughed at him.
I didn't report to the police but spoke about it at uni (we were trainee teachers) to others and discovered I was just one of many of the female students he'd had an incident with. None as bad as mine but all along the same lines. We reported him and after that day, he left, dropped off the course and I have no idea what happened to him.

I would have reported to the police but it would have been my word against his so thought there was no point.

Overjoyed that he dropped out of teacher training though as the thought of him being in responsibility of young girls was scary. He was training to be an RE teacher and had previously dropped out of the priesthood.

To be honest, I was and am quite confident sexually so apart from making me very angry, I wasn't really affected by it. I was had many close male friends who were just as disgusted by his behaviour and wouldn't dream of behaving in that way, so I was able to process the event quite rationally and direct the anger to where it was deserved .... I.e at him!
It did make me a little more cautious though.

Madwife123 · 08/11/2020 12:52

In my case my abuser assaulted me BECAUSE I’m a lesbian. It just couldn’t enter his head that I do not find men attractive and he felt the need to ‘prove’ otherwise.

When I told people what had happened I was told it wasn’t that bad, what can I expect when all my friends are male, maybe he meant it harmlessly, maybe I misinterpreted.

Too many people excuse this behaviour. Is is NEVER ok to put your hands on someone else without full consent, no exceptions!

InvisibleDragon · 08/11/2020 12:39

There's a lot of "nice men"out there, and they have a lot of enablers too, both male and female.

I think sometimes in people's desire to condemn sexual assault and rape, they "other" the perpetrators into being some kind of inhuman monsters. Men in particular.

So then, they are comfortable saying they would never be friends with a rapist, or that they would never stand by a rapist, or disbelieve a woman who says she was assaulted.

But actually, as bloggeryblog says, sexual predators don't look like monsters. They look like your friends, your colleagues, people you know and think highly of.

So then there's this cognitive dissonance between the idea of the monstrous criminal, and the unassuming, friendly chap you watch the football with. Your mate, who's nice and definitely not a monster.

And the easiest way to resolve the dissonance (and keep your identity as someone who supports survivors intact), is then to deny or minimise the behaviour - it wasn't really that bad, or you must have led him on or you didn't fight back.

And so these assaults by "nice men" are ignored and normalised. So the ignorant keep their warm fuzzy feeling, the perpetrators continue to abuse and their victims are marginalised and silenced.

It's such BS. I'm sorry this happened to you bloggeryblog and I'm sorry your friend was so useless about understanding why it wasn't ok.