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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Just read Abigail Shrier’s Book

86 replies

Wandawomble · 07/11/2020 09:01

What an eye opener and very reflective of what I’m seeing with my kids in their schools and their friend groups.
Fantastic read and would highly recommend to anyone concerned about this. I got it as the audio book.

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Tootsweets23 · 20/11/2020 10:20

It absolutely does seem to be white middle class girls primarily. Their oppression is invisible since it's not acceptable to point out that females are still oppressed. Maybe it's a relief to them be able to speak about being oppressed, even if they have to attribute it to something else?

This really resonated with me too @ChattyLion and @napody.

I read this article recently - it is a moving piece about a woman born with a disability (her arm has a malformation) and then discovering in her teen years that she has a syndrome that means she can't have children.

In the piece though, she says "With everything that’s going on in the world, listing the ways the universe has wronged me felt like a petty endeavour; as a cis, white, middle-class woman, I felt like my voice was not what was needed at the moment."

She then goes on to say "People who fall under protected characteristics – race, creed, sexuality, disability – are under a greater threat than ever."

How poorly served young women are by the current dominant strain of feminism. Here is a woman with a physical disability that has caused her problems and resulted in her being treated pretty shittily at times by doctors and society - it is her sex combined with this disability that caused this treatment, not just the disability.

And yet she doesn't include her sex as being a protected characteristic, and indeed infers somehow that her "cis" womanhood is a form of privilege compared to others.

Plus she's had to come to terms with not being able to have children, and you can see how messed up her understanding of the gender critical position is: "Given my diagnosis at 15, much of the discourse around trans rights and what constitutes a “real woman” is personally painful. Excluding certain individuals because of anatomical difference feels regressive, cruel, fearful of the other. Growing up, I could not join in with my friends’ conversations about periods, birth control, the morning-after pill – something that caused me a great deal of shame, suffering and confusion. But is that all being a woman is? If trans women are not women, according to these rules, I’m not either; though if I’m not a woman, what exactly am I?"

It must have been so heart breaking to go through that, and then end up in a place of not feeling like a woman because of it. And basically suggests that her syndrome makes her a non-woman. How fucked up is that?

How has current identity politics convinced women to view themselves as privileged and not oppressed? It is the ultimate bait and switch.

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/08/how-long-covid-forced-me-to-confront-my-past-and-my-identity

ChattyLion · 20/11/2020 00:12

it absolutely does seem to be white middle class girls primarily. Their oppression is invisible since it's not acceptable to point out that females are still oppressed. Maybe it's a relief to them be able to speak about being oppressed, even if they have to attribute it to something else?

This really resonated with me napody.
This whole phenomenon shows how misogyny is placing an often unbearable burden on girls. It’s frightening and depressing in equal measure.

Whatwouldscullydo · 19/11/2020 07:37

I see one of the usual suspects is back. As incoherent as ever .

Igneococcus · 19/11/2020 06:32

Janice Turner talks about the book in her column today:
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/80f5d4b8-29d6-11eb-b054-8dc1447a1be1?shareToken=607baf246ddc0ec0f352c6365a8e12e1

PearPickingPorky · 18/11/2020 03:43

Their social life was in cyberspace and in a sense did not include their physical bodies at all. In cyberspace, of course, you can identify however you wish as nobody can see you, so this may explain in part why some teens truly seem to believe that if they identify as trans men and like men then gay men must be attracted to them etc.

Gosh, this is very interesting. Especially

Their social life was in cyberspace and in a sense did not include their physical bodies at all.

There definitely does seem to be a feeling that what you say you identify as is your online persona, and when the majority of your interaction is online then you can "be" that person (eg a boy if you're a female teenager, or a girl if you're a middle-aged male, etc). They get so attached to "being" what they're not that they then struggle to switch to real-life interactions with people who will perceive the reality of what is in front of them.

miri1985 · 17/11/2020 23:18

Wow, it went from 102 yesterday which was still excellent but its #12 on US amazon today. People really don't like being told what not to read!

Just read Abigail Shrier’s Book
miri1985 · 16/11/2020 23:32

Was listening to a podcast from last week where they were discussing the target issue about Shier's book and one of the hosts mentioned that all of this was having a major Streisand effect and that the book was 51 out of all books on amazon. Looked it up and its not as popular on UK amazon (2,069) but on US amazon its currently 102 which is amazing, she must she shifting so many books because of all this

If you read the reviews a lot of people bought this because it was being supressed www.amazon.com/Irreversible-Damage-Transgender-Seducing-Daughters/dp/1684510317/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&s=books&keywords=shrier&tag=mumsnetforu03-21&qid=1605569479&sr=1-1

Aesopfable · 16/11/2020 13:16

Their social life was in cyberspace and in a sense did not include their physical bodies at all. In cyberspace, of course, you can identify however you wish as nobody can see you, so this may explain in part why some teens truly seem to believe that if they identify as trans men and like men then gay men must be attracted to them etc.

I agree about the impact of interacting in cyberspace. It seems many TRAs seem to think identities are like avatars - not linked to their physical self and can be changed at will. Your physical self has no impact in the virtual world they inhabit and this allows a freedom to be something other than they are. They want the same freedom in the real world and hate the fact that the real world is impacted by biology.

nepeta · 16/11/2020 13:01

I missed the deletion of a thread on this. But the basic problem is this: For a long time almost all known transgender (or transsexual as they were called in the past) individuals were male. Suddenly the majority of young people identifying that way are female. And this change is clearly something that should be addressed.

What changed? The usual argument trans activists give about the vast increases in the number of teens contacting gender clinics is that now it is safer to come out than it was in the past. But that does not explain why the coming out is so much more common from girls than from boys though there has also been an increase in the numbers of boys declaring trans identity.

Neither does this explain why the pattern of finding about one's possible transgender identity has changed so that we suddenly have many children declaring they are trans relatively late, say, in teen years when they showed no symptoms about this earlier in childhood. And it does not explain the formation of clusters of teens with many friends stating that they are trans or nonbinary roughly at the same time.

So something new is happening. What it is, exactly, is something research should address, but research into this topic is as popular as drinking bleach because of the horrible consequences to those who undertake it if they don't come up with answer which please activists.

In searching for those answers I certainly think that we should remember how teen years are a time which is quite difficult for many, how peers matter very much in how one sculpts different experimental identities, how undeveloped the brains of teens still are, and how social media probably has intensified the social contagion effect which has been reported in the past to apply to similar phenomena.

I can think of all sorts of reasons for why a teen girl, specifically, might want not to be a girl in most cultures.

Suddenly you have breasts and suddenly really old men (old from your point of view) start ogling you and even harassing you. Suddenly the boys find porn and start talking about you in that context. Then add to that possible homophobia for those who find their sexuality to be Lesbian, and how easy it would seem to fix by just changing to be a boy. And of course most of us would like to be treated as full human beings, not as walking stereotypes of women, and now the teens are told that this means identifying as at least nonbinary...

About Shrier's book: Because I have read a lot in this field I actually didn't learn an enormous amount from the book, though I was struck by the fact that so many of the young people transitioning talked about their sexual preferences and so on without ever having even dated anyone. Their social life was in cyberspace and in a sense did not include their physical bodies at all. In cyberspace, of course, you can identify however you wish as nobody can see you, so this may explain in part why some teens truly seem to believe that if they identify as trans men and like men then gay men must be attracted to them etc.

Wandawomble · 16/11/2020 05:37

Entirely relevant and thanks for sharing. Brilliant news to see common sense starting to emerge in Sweden.

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Winesalot · 15/11/2020 22:52

I am posting this link on a few threads, this article refers to steps the Swedish government has taken in regards to female teenagers.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

And the comments had extra links.

Entirely relevant to anyone reading this book I would think.

lionheart · 15/11/2020 22:01

[quote nauticant]Obviously the book was never going to go down well in some quarters but this from a journalist at the New Yorker is shocking:

twitter.com/fickleskittle/status/1327313858684448770

For some on the right side of history, the contents of the book fall somewhere between "inconvenient truth" and "LOL!"

The reliably unpleasant Grace Lavery also gets in on the act:

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1327350356683202561[/quote]
A Professor at Berkeley who advocates book burning?

Winesalot · 15/11/2020 10:24

I am also highly suspicious of a male, who have their own families, callously disregarding children and teenager’s fertility and sexual future. Particularly females.

Like there is a complete disconnect with the sex of those they identify as.

nauticant · 15/11/2020 10:15

I will always view with great suspicion a middle-aged man being keen on safeguards being removed around girls and young women to enable drastic and life-changing medical interventions, and particularly those that lead to sterilisation. Obviously if I say what might be in the background of this, my comment would be deleted.

Whatwouldscullydo · 15/11/2020 10:12

And as I said on a previous thread. How can wanting good evidence based health care and being fully informed about risks and benefits etc be a bad thing.

Everyone deserves the best health care possible.

Whatwouldscullydo · 15/11/2020 10:10

It is...

Someone else or someone else's child having mental health issues that may or may not contribute to their gender identity crisis has absolutely nothing to do with the validity of someone else's identity.

Different people will need different things and neither course of action is about anyone else but the person involved

Winesalot · 15/11/2020 09:59

Why are people so opposed or angry or upset about looking into the mental health of teenage girls...

I notice we didn’t get a reply to that very question posed in many different ways to one of our regular male posters on another thread Scully. And never any acknowledgement that their experience is not that of the current cohort.

That same poster also wouldn’t tell us what in this book was incorrect and declined to tell us if they’d actually read it despite saying how it was full of lies. Mmmm... full of case studies from interviews from parents, transitionioners, detransitioners and NOT one person coming forward to say they were misrepresented.

And the professionals all have many years experience transitioning patients and saying something isn’t working with the current approach. Not trying to stop all transitions, but trying to get better tailored and evidence based treatments. Ie. More studies into what is and isn’t working.

Quite a thing to argue against isn’t it?

Whatwouldscullydo · 15/11/2020 09:45

Yet Target reinstated it quickly

She said in her interview with Joe rogan, this book isn't about trans people its about the mental health of girls. Why are people so opposed or angry or upset about looking into the mental health of teenage girls....

AlwaysTawnyOwl · 14/11/2020 23:47

I've bought it and read it and highly recommend it. It's a very interesting book, especially the case studies of the girls, who see transistioning as being the answer to much teenage angst. The role of ubiquitous, violent, abusive porn. Who would want to be a woman when that means being humiliated, abused, choked, raped? The cult like nature of it, and the role of the internet.

Below is an interesting paper showing a very welcome sharp downturn in the numbers of young people applying to gender clinics in Sweden. It follows the release of the documentary about trans treatment and the paucity of the evidence base for it, and a prominent Swedish transwoman saying they would not have transitioned had they known how little evidence there was.

genderreport.ca/the-swedish-u-turn-on-gender-transitioning/

endofthelinefinally · 14/11/2020 20:10

The stalking, reporting and deleting has become so much more frequent in recent months. It is very difficult to even raise this as a problem though, because even that gets deleted.

nauticant · 14/11/2020 20:01

I'd missed that. Very reassuring to see. Let's hope this is part of commercial enterprises becoming aware that their interests are best served by just getting on with business rather than playing at identity politics.

Winesalot · 14/11/2020 15:40

Yet Target reinstated it quickly.

twitter.com/asktarget/status/1327368417167478784?s=21

nauticant · 14/11/2020 15:06

Obviously the book was never going to go down well in some quarters but this from a journalist at the New Yorker is shocking:

twitter.com/fickleskittle/status/1327313858684448770

For some on the right side of history, the contents of the book fall somewhere between "inconvenient truth" and "LOL!"

The reliably unpleasant Grace Lavery also gets in on the act:

twitter.com/graceelavery/status/1327350356683202561

BitOfFun · 07/11/2020 19:10

I've just bought the audiobook; thanks for the recommendation.

lucylucky1977 · 07/11/2020 19:01

So this child would be looking for others to have a relationship with and then they would “adopt” another child. She started doing this when she was 6 and now she’s 8 and I’ve just made her dad put limits on it again for the umpteenth time.

On some of the fetish sites there’s a lot of talk about “adopt me” style role play too. I think an overlap may be occurring, whereby a child’s game of mummys and daddys is getting turned into something else.
Something else I notice is the Gacha community have a lot of weird videos on YouTube with these weird toxic “relationships.” Again this child was watching a lot of those videos.