The police should not record us as hateful in secret

Wasn't it great to see how speedily the crowd funder reached its first target? People really understand the sinister implications of these records without accountability and the ease with which the deranged or bigoted can report innocent people.

Agree Persistent it's sinister overreach

Now in that incident the police might reasonably say fuck off thats absurd, and not record it. However the police could not be trusted to have that level of discretion when it came to reports of racism. Thats why these new guidelines were introduced after the Lawrence inquiry.

[quote DappledOliveGroves]@jj1968 are you actually reading a single response?

Someone takes offence to a comment made by a stranger on the internet. That individual reports the comment-maker to the police. The police record a 'non crime hate incident' on the comment-maker's record.

Do you really think that saying 'human beings cannot change sex' is indicative that a crime is likely to be committed by the person making this statement? [/quote]
No, I don't think it's likely a crime would be committed. But I don't think the police should be given discretion necessarily to decide to destroy all details of the report. Look I could call the police and say you nicked my car. That's patentetly absurd, you don't know me and I don't own a car. But the police could legally put it on your file that you had been reported for suspicion of car theft but no further acion took place. That's how policing has always worked, it's why they didn't need to change the law when they brought in the hate incident policy. And if suddenly several other randoms from the internet also reported you for nicking their car then there might be a reason for police to look into it. That's how investigations work. They can't do that if reports have to be destroyed because technically no crime has been committed.

Lol at dappled.

Nope they are not

@jj1968 are you actually reading a single response?

Someone takes offence to a comment made by a stranger on the internet. That individual reports the comment-maker to the police. The police record a 'non crime hate incident' on the comment-maker's record.

Do you really think that saying 'human beings cannot change sex' is indicative that a crime is likely to be committed by the person making this statement?

And that creepy bloke will have the allegation held on file at his local police station. And it is possible that information might be passed on in an enhanced DBS check. It's the down to potential employers to make a decision on how or whether to act on that.

Yes and you won’t even know you have been reported.

Sinister as fuck

In your example, a crime has potentially been committed.

Everyone who reports something to the police believes either a crime has been committed or there is a risk of a crime being committed. Sometimes there has been, sometime there hasn't, more often there is no evidence either way. But it will usually be logged. This allows the police tobuild up a picture of behaviour. Say some bloke is acting in a creepy and concerning way, repeatedly hanging around outside a school or playpark for example, but hasn't yet done anything criminal. Do you think the police should not be permitted to record any concerns brought to them until an actual crime has been committed? After all it may turn out that they were perfectly innocent and had no intention of committing a crime.

The vast majority of people agree with you but most lack the guts to be as open, frank and expressive as you. Good luck.

Wasn't it great to see how speedily the crowd funder reached its first target? People really understand the sinister implications of these records without accountability and the ease with which the deranged or bigoted can report innocent people.
I find reading all the thousands of supportive comments under this and other recent crowd funders heartwarming as people are determined to stop these unprecedented levels of bullying and intimidatory behaviour. Of course vulnerable groups need protection - but it must be open and accountable - not modelled on the actions of an oppressive communist state.

It's the apparent lack of checks and balances or proper process and the subjectivity of it that's so concerning.

(Pressed post too soon) and it would be investigated.

Not simply recorded as a black mark against someone, in secret.

That’s it cruncher. Exactly

You are confusing hate crimes with hate incidents.

If someone is behaving in an intimidating way, that could constitute assault, whether or not it is motivated by hate.

A hate incident doesn't have to be anything illegal being alleged. It could be that my feelings are hurt by your refusal to condemn JKR on social media, for instance.

There are no rules about what constitutes a hate incident, it's completely subjective. And the police were adding as judge and jury, in secret.

In your example, yes a record of an allegation would be kept (I don't know how long for) but it would be just that, an unproven allegation. It's not a record of wrongdoing, it's a record of someone's complaint.

They are very different.

In your example, a crime has potentially been committed.

@jj1968 but on the current basis, the police could simply accept the woman's word, undertake no investigation and record it as a 'non-crime hate incident' against the neighbour, who would no nothing about it and have no right to defend himself.

What if the woman is paranoid, and in fact the neighbour has muttered that she never takes her bins out or leaves food scraps for the pigeons? What if the woman has a vendetta against her neighbour and simply wants to report him maliciously? Should the police accept their versions of events, with no evidence, and label the man as someone 'motivated by hatred?'

If someone is shouting homophobic abuse then by all means investigate. But recording a hate incident against an individual, who has simply stated on Twitter that 'women don't have penises', because some random individual has taken offence? You think that's ok?

You are doing great work Sarah

Takes a woman with courage to do what you are doing

And you are a courageous woman 💪💪💪💪❤️

Lets say someone, perhaps a lesbian woman living alone, goes to the police and says looks, I'm a bit worried about my neighbour, he's been staring at me aggresively and muttering what I think are homophobic slurs under his breath when we pass each other in the street. What are the police supposed to do, say well sorry thats not enough evidence, now we can keep a record of this report but that means we have to go round and talk to them and tell then what you told us or we have to detroy all details of this conversation? That's insane sorry, I mean I have some concerns with how long information can be held and for what purpose but how would the police be able to investigate or monitor anything under these circumstances?

But this case seems to go further and suggests the police should now be compelled to inform anyone who has had an allegation made against them and tell them who made it. Can you not see the potential risks in that?

jj, you've misunderstood.

jj The issue is not that there has been an allegation.

The issue is that currently the police seem able to keep secret records of anyone deemed to have hateful views. Deemed by anyone. They don't have to make allegations of actually breaking any laws.

Can you really not see how dangerous it is if the State (or unelected actors on behalf of the state) is allowed to record opinions as hateful, in secret, with no right to appeal, challenge or recourse? Can you not see the implications for freedom of speech?

I have dug.

So if someone goes to the police worried about abusive behaviour from a neighbour they feel is racist or homophobic and scared it might escalate then if the police do not feel the evidence threshold for an arrest has been met then they should be duty bound to either go and inform that neighbour or destroy any records of the allegation? That's absurd, and dangerously so.

@Spero You are a warrior godess and I thank you.

Thank you Spero 🙏🏼

@SunsetBeetch

Aww mimmymum finally signed up to Mumsnet

I'm so grateful for people like the OP who are able to take this issue on at source. Thank you!