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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

'To say that some men rape and sexually assault women and girls is an uncontroversial fact'

112 replies

HecatesCats · 05/11/2020 18:40

Kathleen Stock has written an excellent blog reflecting on the alleged rape in Mitcham and how best to protect women and girls from dangerous men:

'Other than teaching women self-protection, a second thing a society can do to reduce rape and sexual assault is to encourage safeguarding social norms to get embedded, so that it becomes unusual and indeed remarkable for men to be in public areas where women and girls undress or sleep.'

kathleenstock.com/noticing-reality/

The original story:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8910225/Pictured-Man-hunted-police-rape-attack-teenage-girl-South-London.html

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AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 13/11/2020 19:40

That would be because some men rape and sexually assault women and girls, right? Not all; some.

Whether they dress up as something else at the time of the assault really doesn't alter the fact. If they are wearing a gorilla suit, or a kilt, or scuba gear, it really doesn't make any difference.

Clymene · 13/11/2020 19:24

To paraphrase Stock, the only way to keep women safe is to keep men - however they identify - out of women's spaces.

I don't care if they pass. I don't care if they have GRCs.

334bu · 13/11/2020 18:51

Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of Prisons : survey done in prisons and reported in several newspapers

SapphosRock · 13/11/2020 18:43

As 2% of all male prisoners in male prisons now self identify as transgender

Do they? Source?

334bu · 13/11/2020 17:54

As 2% of all male prisoners in male prisons now self identify as transgender and the male estate has about 19% of its cohort as sex offenders, given that there is no evidence that transgender male prisoners have a different pattern of criminality from other men , then we can assume that there are about 300 transgender sex offenders and that is three times the rate of female offending. This of course does not include the transwomen who may or not be included in the female sex offender tally.

HecatesCats · 13/11/2020 17:38

As you were

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HecatesCats · 13/11/2020 17:38

And this:

The liberal left in the UK is stuck in a totally incoherent position. It happily approves of the first strategy – teaching women to be more assertive and even aggressive when they need to be (“listen to your instincts; channel your anger!”); yet, all the while, happily dismantling social norms separating the sexes in changing rooms, bathrooms, hostels, dormitories, and prisons, and undermining those who want to keep them (“be more inclusive!; if you feel discomfort, say nothing”.). If you work for a University, a media organisation, an arts organisation, a charity, a government department, or a third sector organisation, the chances are high that your employer now has policies stating explicitly that males who self-identify as women (not just transsexuals –any male at all who feels like a woman today, or who says they do) can legitimately enter formerly female-only spaces in your institution at will. Read that again. Yes, official policies. In some places, these policies have already enabled womenn^ and childrenn^ to be sexually assaulted. You may not like that fact, either, but it is one.

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HecatesCats · 13/11/2020 17:34

So just to bring this back to Kathleen Stock's blog, with apologies to her for chopping it up, but I think these passages bear repeating:

^
Whatever particulars of this case are established at a future trial, I want to draw attention to some incontrovertible general facts. Some men are sexual predators. Some men rape and sexually assault women and girls. These events often leave indelible trauma for women and girls in their wake. As a society, we seem unable to hold these general facts in mind without detaching, denying, excusing, blaming, sensationalising, or changing the subject.^

... Remember – I’m just stating facts. You may not like those facts but they are still there, perfectly indifferent to your emotional responses to them. If you are a man reading this, I’m not blaming you for those facts. But equally, I’m not talking about other, different facts. Some men get sexually assaulted too. I’m not talking about that right now, though people should. I’m talking about women and girls, and the fact that some men rape and sexually assault them...

So what – strategically speaking – can a society do about these facts, assuming it wants to do anything at all? Let’s not get distracted by big picture stuff - fancy rehabilitation programmes after the fact, or longer sentencing, or bringing up men and boys completely differently from birth, or whatever. Let’s just ask: what’s the very least a society can do, to reduce the chances of some men raping and sexually assaulting women and girls in the first place, and so sparing them some trauma? And I said “reduce”, not “eliminate”. Elimination isn’t a feasible goal.

...Other than teaching women self-protection, a second thing a society can do to reduce rape and sexual assault is to encourage safeguarding social norms to get embedded, so that it becomes unusual and indeed remarkable for men to be in public areas where women and girls undress or sleep. When in these areas, women and girls are more vulnerable to assault even than usual, for obvious reasons. If there’s a well-established norm that only women and girls are in these areas, a man will look out of place. And this appearance of abnormality, in that context, may embolden the women and girls in the room to say something, or to shout, or even to seek assistance – where doing these things may be the only protection they have in that moment against larger and stronger predators.

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QuentinWinters · 13/11/2020 17:31

Surely this shows that sexual assault from women is incredibly rare and from trans women even rarer?

You what? That would only be the case if trans women and female women were present in equal numbers. There are far fewer trans women than female women. Therefore trans women are disproportionately likely to be sex offenders.

SapphosRock · 13/11/2020 16:46

@Clymene that's really interesting. So there are 100 female sex offenders currently in prison.

There are 60 transgender sex offenders in prison.

Therefore there are almost double the amount of female sex offenders in prison than there are transgender sex offenders.

Surely this shows that sexual assault from women is incredibly rare and from trans women even rarer?

Therefore it's men that are the problem.

Reality Check verdict: A government survey has counted 125 transgender prisoners in England and Wales, but the Ministry of Justice says these figures are not yet a reliable reflection of the true numbers. The MoJ says 60 of them have been convicted of one or more sexual offences but it didn't identify their gender. There are likely to be more trans inmates, on shorter sentences and who are less likely to be sex offenders, who don't show up in this data.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-42221629

Clymene · 13/11/2020 14:35

More importantly (as the FPFW article demonstrates) there are only 100 women in the prison population convicted of sex crimes so a tiny percentage of the overall female population compared to nearly 20% of men and nearly half of transwomen in prison.

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 13/11/2020 12:54

And the percentage of the male population who have decided to assert that they are female is?

Clymene · 13/11/2020 12:44

@SapphosRock
A quick good would show you it's 13,000. So transwomen make up a tiny percentage of incarcerated men. That really isn't the point because there is no danger of most of those 13,000 being held with women and babies.

Perhaps you do everyone on the thread a favour and read about it

fairplayforwomen.com/transgender-prisoners/

SapphosRock · 13/11/2020 12:43

I looked it up. As at 31 March 2018 there were 13,562 prisoners serving sentences for sexual offences, which represented 19% of the sentenced prison population.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/702297/omsq-q4-2017.pdf

There are 22 trans women in females prisons (still 22 too many) and 97 in male prisons. 19% of which are sex offenders.

Therefore, as per my original statement, 99.9% of the time the problem is men.

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/07/09/one-50-prisoners-identify-transsexual-first-figures-show-amid/amp/

QuentinWinters · 13/11/2020 12:39

Many were online (possession of indecent images etc).
Hmm thats a minimisation. Only 2 on that list were about possession of indecent images, out of 30 offences listed. 17 were sexual crimes and most of those were child abuse.

QuentinWinters · 13/11/2020 12:33

I think a more compelling argument is that many women read trans women as male, particularly in female spaces. This can trigger a trauma response (20% of women have been victim to male sexual assault) and women need and deserve single sex spaces to avoid this.
Well I kind of agree sapphos but when you start down this path you get the argument back that its transphobic to suggest TW don't pass and unfair to discriminate between passing and nonpassing TW. Which I also agree with.

Why is the onus on women to find an acceptable argument why they need male free space? As soon as we have to do that, we are on the back foot because someone will pick it apart.

I'd much prefer the default to be that we have female only space and there needs to be an argument why that can be removed (that isn't "be kind")

SapphosRock · 13/11/2020 12:27

@334bu

As MOJ figures show that almost half the transgender prisoners in male prison are sex offenders compared with 19% of the other men there would appear to be some discrepancy in your figures
Do you have the figures for the number of trans sexual offenders in prison vs the number of male sexual offenders?
HecatesCats · 13/11/2020 12:21

Sorry I didn't mean people I meant men.

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HecatesCats · 13/11/2020 12:20

@334bu

As MOJ figures show that almost half the transgender prisoners in male prison are sex offenders compared with 19% of the other men there would appear to be some discrepancy in your figures
You don't think people are taking advantage do you?! Surely that would never happen...
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334bu · 13/11/2020 12:16

As MOJ figures show that almost half the transgender prisoners in male prison are sex offenders compared with 19% of the other men there would appear to be some discrepancy in your figures

SapphosRock · 13/11/2020 12:04

Oh my gosh I hope nobody on this thread is hoping to pass GCSE maths.

I made the numbers up because the actual true reported numbers of sexual crimes committed by trans people are miniscule. It's 17. 17 trans people were charged with commuting a sexual offense in 2019 (15 were convicted). Many were online (possession of indecent images etc).

transcrimeuk.com/2019-convictions/

This is 0.003% of all sexual crime.

Anything over and above this figure is guesswork unless anyone on the thread can demonstrate otherwise?

AskingQuestionsAllTheTime · 13/11/2020 11:21

The made up numbers come really surprisingly close to the percentage of trans people in the population: 0.3% in each case.

(0.3% of sexual assaults on women are committed by trans people according to SR, 0.3% of the population is trans according to figures from Stonewall.)

But only half the population is male.

IAmNotAGirl · 13/11/2020 09:36

SapphosRock you are trying to derail the discussion with your fake stats. You had no source for your original assertion, your first set of assumptions were bogus, your latest assumption also has no basis. You don’t state a source for these assumptions because You have made your numbers up and you’re throwing made up stats around on the Trump principle that if you state your ‘Alternative facts’ with confidence someone will believe you.

I am not wasting anymore time on you but I really hope your job doesn’t depend on you being truthful, accurate or require any maths

334bu · 12/11/2020 23:22

Or even if they are called Brianna!

HipTightOnions · 12/11/2020 23:21

That still only makes 0.3% of sexual offenders transgender.

It may be that only a small number of sexual offenders are called Brian. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t object to men called Brian in women’s spaces.

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