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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Concerning tweet from a mum of a disabled child regarding their care at school.

39 replies

yourhairiswinterfire · 04/11/2020 01:33

mobile.twitter.com/Womankind15/status/1323621958886580224

I've looked for a thread but couldn't see if this has been posted. The mum of a disabled child that attends a special needs school has been contacted to say that parents no longer have the right to request a same sex staff member help their child with their intimate care, and the school have removed the "cross gender" consent part from their policy.

Because the school wants to be diverse Hmm

Someone please tell me this isn't legal. This absolutely can't be legal.

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cabbageking · 06/11/2020 23:55

Staff can change, people can go off sick and there may be odd times there is no one of that sex on duty in a small school. This can happen in any school regardless of any policy.

But you would know that at the start of the day and look at alternatives or discuss the situation with the parents.

BettyDuKeiraBellisMyShero · 05/11/2020 23:15

@EyesOpening

When applying for a job, I’ve been told I need a birth certificate issued within a year of my birth (if I recall correctly), so presumably this would show my actual sex (although I’m not sure as I thought when someone gets a GRC and new BC that you can’t tell the difference )
I think the new, post GRC birth certificate has the date the registry entry changed written on it, ie, at least 18 years after the actual birthdate.

There are some other reasons for this, but not many (one of my relatives was never registered, but he was born immediately post war so paperwork wasn’t required for everything the way it is now. He only realised when he tried to get a first passport and he didn’t officially exist Shock )

EyesOpening · 05/11/2020 22:33

@cabbageking

The change in wording of the policy doesn't mean anything is going to change. The poster needs to check the same person is providing the care as usual.
but what if that person is sick, or leaves?
cabbageking · 05/11/2020 22:29

The change in wording of the policy doesn't mean anything is going to change. The poster needs to check the same person is providing the care as usual.

justicedanceson · 05/11/2020 11:18

@Coconutmeg

justicedanceson, there’s just one male staff member in ours, out of the whole school. Round here it seems similar to the ratio in mainstream primary, in that there are few men. I don’t see how boys could access education if they depended on only having Male staff for personal care unless something drastic was done to lure more men into that type of work.
Surely that’s a practical consideration you could discuss with parents? In general my experience is that special needs schools have more men but there will obviously be massive variation. I’m not against cross-sex intimate care. I’ve done it and so have male members of my team. I’m against the idea that without good reason (I.e a lack of male staff) parents and children’s wishes about who gets access to their bodies can be trumped by supposed diversity and equality.
Aesopfable · 05/11/2020 09:19

No one mentioned the Equality Act???

PlanDeRaccordement · 05/11/2020 09:05

@MrsSlocombesPussy
The plot thickens.... thank you for posting the update.

MrsSlocombesPussy · 05/11/2020 08:58

A further update

twitter.com/womankind15/status/1324046137830084608?s=21

EyesOpening · 05/11/2020 08:32

When applying for a job, I’ve been told I need a birth certificate issued within a year of my birth (if I recall correctly), so presumably this would show my actual sex (although I’m not sure as I thought when someone gets a GRC and new BC that you can’t tell the difference )

EyesOpening · 05/11/2020 08:28

@MrsFionaCharming

Whenever I’ve started a new job, a copy has been taken of my passport to prove right to work. Presumably this could also be used to determine sex in those who won’t disclose their gender?
I’ve read that trans people can put what they want on their passport (I don’t know if this is true though) so this might not be their sex
papersmith · 05/11/2020 06:42

This policy would affect all sorts of activities eg swimming etc.

I don't like to dismiss something this serious as fake and in this Orwellian world I could believe it's true. If so I'm utterly gobsmacked at the behaviour of that staff.

Could anyone clarify what would be the outcome of removing this consent from?

Surely it means fewer male pupils could be attended to by women?

Given we have to have consent forms to breath these days I also really query what the hell is going on in such a school.

papersmith · 05/11/2020 06:38

This is really strange.

I'm in primary Sen; we have very few men (4 out of about 80 staff) and mostly male pupils. Women and men care for the boys (we have some employees where that's their primary role) and only women care for the few girls we have.

I've written and deleted a few responses.

I'd suggest the mother contacts Ofsted and the LEA safeguarding services.

I'd also point out that any pupil who's religion has certain rules around women and men mixing is very much excluded from such a diversity policy.

Coconutmeg · 05/11/2020 06:35

justicedanceson, there’s just one male staff member in ours, out of the whole school.
Round here it seems similar to the ratio in mainstream primary, in that there are few men.
I don’t see how boys could access education if they depended on only having Male staff for personal care unless something drastic was done to lure more men into that type of work.

NRatched · 05/11/2020 03:27

Several members of staff are refusing to disclose their 'gender'? Erm, what?

This sounds odd.

Surely the school would know the staff members sex. If thats whats meant (assuming as usual gender is used where sex is meant)

IF its actually about 'gender' then, gender surely doesn't matter to anything anyway? Staff might be refusing to give pronouns or something maybe, but that again, means nowt when it comes to sex specific services?

Very confusing situation here. If theres really a load of staff that suddenly refuse to give their 'gender' and this is causing issues for children with disabilities (or any children, for that matter) then the issue is the staff, you do not change rules/safeguarding to accomodate such self indulgence surely..

Aesopfable · 05/11/2020 02:10

Anyone who places their own desires above those of a very vulnerable child should not be anywhere near that child.

justicedanceson · 05/11/2020 01:43

@Coconutmeg

Not many men in jobs which provide personal care. I’d be surprised if there’s enough for a same sex policy. I can imagine the few men working in the school just spend all the time doing personal care.
That isn't my experience of special schools. Quite a high number of men. My class team was 50-50 male and female staff. Almost always each class would have at least one man and they did provide personal care as well as the women.
justicedanceson · 05/11/2020 01:41

Sorry realised my last post made it seem like I was conflating gay men and trans women. I wasn't intending that. More just that special needs schools have a diverse workforce. So I can imagine are likely to have trans employees.

justicedanceson · 05/11/2020 01:38

This is awful. I've provided intimate care for non verbal children. Honestly I can't think of a more vulnerable group. We were a mixed sex staff team but we respected children's parent's beliefs and preferences. Mostly they didn't mind who provided care for their child but if they did we would respect that.

Lots of wonderful and caring gay men (maybe 20% of the staff) worked in both special needs schools that I taught at. So understand the need to be an inclusive employer. Overriding the reasonable requests of parents isn't being inclusive. I can't imagine any of my colleagues making such a stand when parents are just ensuring basic respect and dignity. I don't see why this is causing such an issue for the school. Surely any reasonable trans person or court would understand the need to respect requests for same sex care, and realise that the right to change a child's nappy or help them in the loo isn't a hill worth dying on and maybe isn't all about them.

MrsFionaCharming · 05/11/2020 01:24

Whenever I’ve started a new job, a copy has been taken of my passport to prove right to work. Presumably this could also be used to determine sex in those who won’t disclose their gender?

ifchocolatewerecelery · 04/11/2020 22:27

Not sure how that works given that it's an adult you can legally refuse to hire a carer of the opposite sex to help with your personal care.

BrassicaRabbit · 04/11/2020 22:17

My experience of working in a special school was roughly 75% of the pupils were male. And probably about 30% of the staff. So, although that's a lot more male staff than in a mainstream school, they did spend their time doing more personal care than the female staff.

We had several girls where sexual abuse (outside of school) was suspected but never proved. Depressingly common in this population.

It simply wouldn't have been physically safe for some of the female staff to provide personal care for some of the older male pupils. A change of gender ID would have made no difference.

I'm very surprised to hear about this school. The staff involved don't sound like the kind of people I worked with. It's such a full on environment. 100% about the kids. And a lot of safeguarding training.

Coconutmeg · 04/11/2020 22:05

Not many men in jobs which provide personal care.
I’d be surprised if there’s enough for a same sex policy.
I can imagine the few men working in the school just spend all the time doing personal care.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 04/11/2020 21:14

But gender is obvious as it seems to be merely a collection of stereotypes. Sex is a little harder to hide but still...

yourhairiswinterfire · 04/11/2020 21:12

[quote MrsSlocombesPussy]There's an update, I really feel for this woman and all the children at this school

twitter.com/womankind15/status/1323948950777434112?s=21[/quote]
Oh God, this is awful. Some children, as Deltoids pointed out, won't be able to communicate should anything happen :(

And staff refusing to disclose their gender, really Hmm They have no fucking right being around vulnerable children if they're not honest. How the hell does an adults feelings trump the needs of vulnerable children?

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MrsSlocombesPussy · 04/11/2020 20:55

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Concerning tweet from a mum of a disabled child regarding their care at school.
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