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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Amnesty says feminist resistance to self-ID "is misguided and not based on evidence"

84 replies

thinkingaboutLangCleg · 02/11/2020 13:35

I wrote to Amnesty explaining why I had stopped sending them money, as their support for self-ID was harmful to women and girls. Their reply has just hit my inbox:

"We are sorry to hear about your concerns but Amnesty International is committed to campaigning for the rights of transgender people to live freely, authentically, and openly, and to have their gender legally recognised without having to go through a dehumanising, long and costly procedure.

"We do not believe this goes against our campaigning for women’s rights. We feel the current conversation, in particular on social media with regards to self-identification, is misguided and not based on evidence. Restricting the rights of transgender people will not advance or protect women's rights.

"Our campaigning on this issue is based on Amnesty’s research on legal gender recognition in multiple countries and on existing human rights standards. It also draws from our long-standing work on violence against women and its root causes. We do not launch campaigns without solid research and consideration for the human rights of all groups concerned, and we dispute any assertions that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen.

In countries where self-identification is already the process (Argentina, Ireland) the policy has had absolutely no impact on anyone other than trans people, making their lives easier."

So doing a bit of paperwork, rewarded by an unprecedented right to change your birth certificate, is "dehumanising". But opening women's single-sex spaces to all comers is just fine?

I think Irish women on MN have recently contradicted claims that everything in the self-ID garden is lovely.

As for we dispute any assertions that self-identification will be used by men in order to access spaces where women are vulnerable to abuse or harassment. There is absolutely no evidence that this would happen -- I'm now going to try to compile a list of TW attacking women in public loos, masturbating in women's refuges, posting their fetish play online from their workplace at a children's charity, etc etc.

I know Amnesty is just sending out a standard letter, but I’m still going to send some of the evidence they deny. MN’s ‘This never happens’ threads will be a good start. All other evidence welcomed.

OP posts:
ShagMeRiggins · 03/11/2020 09:03

Then there's Barbie Kardashian, deemed such a threat to women, the Garda warned the public of that threat... without seeing fit to mention that the 'teenage girl' in question is a young man.

A genuine threat to public safety at large and they’re concerned about fucking pronouns and this person’s ‘rights to dignity.’

I’ve never had much esteem for Amnesty. They moved far too swiftly from “freedom of speech” to “we’ll be the judge of what’s right, thanks very much.”

Like Stonewall, they’re another group with impressive PR who have positioned themselves as authorities—based on what, I don’t know—and both organisations are enjoying financially support from members of the public who see them as was, not as is.

Floisme · 03/11/2020 08:31

[quote NotBadConsidering]Argentina:

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-detainee-who-impregnated-fellow-inmate-is-released-from-prison-to-prevent-further-incident/[/quote]
That story is dreadful. And to top it all, I see the lawyer describes the woman prisoner as 'a pregnant person', which I suppose might possibly be a poor translation but quite likely isn't.

I think what scares me most of all is that our grandchildren won't even have the language to talk about this.

NotBadConsidering · 03/11/2020 08:21

I’ve said this before, but the number of women who need to be harmed before trans activists care is always

n + 1

where n = actual number of women harmed.

There will always be an infinite demand for one more example.

Kit19 · 03/11/2020 08:13

[quote NotBadConsidering]Argentina:

www.womenarehuman.com/transgender-detainee-who-impregnated-fellow-inmate-is-released-from-prison-to-prevent-further-incident/[/quote]
i expect amnesty would come back with "oh but we must not judge all trans people by one example"

my DH works in health and safety in construction. His workplace has a target of zero accidents; i remember saying to him once that that was mad "you'll never have 0 accidents" and he said "well how many accidents are OK then? 2?, 5?, 10? 100? how many people being hurt is OK? Target must always be 0 because no injury at work should be regarded as OK" and I shut up very quickly.

Strangely though Amnesty et al seem to think that just a few women being hurt is OK, that that is acceptable collatoral damage 1 woman? 2? , 5? 10?, 100? Id love to know how many women were being hurt would be OK before they reconsidered. Which is why they'll never get a penny off me

PurpleHoodie · 03/11/2020 07:59

They are no longer fit for purpose.

Taken over by a bunch of money grabbing and rape promoting men.

Beamur · 03/11/2020 07:57

Yet another historically sound charity that has lost its focus.

ThatIsNotMyUsername · 03/11/2020 07:52

Amnesty have gone off path. Such a pity

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/11/2020 23:31

When did Amnesty stop being about prisoners of conscience? I always assumed that that was its raison d'etre.

Same here. And I bet most of its donations are still made on those grounds, not male sexual rights and gender identity.

motorcyclenumptiness · 02/11/2020 23:11

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Coyoacan · 02/11/2020 22:41

When did Amnesty stop being about prisoners of conscience? I always assumed that that was its raison d'etre.

Deliriumoftheendless · 02/11/2020 22:32

Send them the evidence, they will ignore it but eventually they will have to own the fact that they knew and they didn’t care. As a human rights organisation.

Dyrne · 02/11/2020 22:13

As others have said, I lost all faith in Amnesty International back when they declared that is was perfectly fine to rape a woman as long as you chuck some money at her afterwards. Their stance on this doesn’t surprise me at all.

IAmNotAGirl · 02/11/2020 21:15

That is so incredibly patronising, its just a we know women have concerns but we’re going to disregard them because well they are women, we don’t believe women

I had a regular donation to Amnesty for a couple of decades, decades when I had no money. But will not be giving any more money unless they have a very public change of policy and an apology.

wellbehavedwomen · 02/11/2020 21:06

Amnesty also believe disabled people have a human right to sex. Do Amnesty also believe anyone's right to sex depends on a willing partner? No person has the right to sex because there are 2 persons rights at stake

No, they believe disabled men have a human right to sex.

Amnesty is not a humans rights organisation, it's a men's rights organisation.

Yep. Self ID is working just fine in Ireland only if you regard the women in Limerick prison as subhuman, and the male prisoners - including such a dangerous mass rapist that when in communal areas with the other prisoners (WTF - in a women's prison?!) he must have two guards with him at all times. Then there's Barbie Kardashian, deemed such a threat to women, the Garda warned the public of that threat... without seeing fit to mention that the 'teenage girl' in question is a young man.

Amnesty support locking vulnerable women in alongside mass rapists and men who say the screams of women as they harm them 'are music to my ears', and call that human rights activism. The words for just what precisely that makes them would probably get me banned. I invite you to fill in the blanks.

HecatesCats · 02/11/2020 20:43

@ShagMeRiggins

SWIW?
Even Rolling Stone can see the problems with Amnesty's prostitution policy... www.rollingstone.com/politics/politics-news/5-reasons-to-be-wary-of-amnestys-prostitution-policy-198762/
Maduixa · 02/11/2020 20:31

It broke my heart to stop giving to the US- based Southern Poverty Law Center (SPLC). My parents had given them funds for decades, as immigrants to the US, but would not have been au fait with the misogyny they spout today. It’s tough, but arseholes are arseholes and I will not fund them. I look to newer groups like WPUK or LGB Alliance to use that money.

Clymene · 02/11/2020 19:29

@ThousandsAreSailing

Amnesty also believe disabled people have a human right to sex. Do Amnesty also believe anyone's right to sex depends on a willing partner? No person has the right to sex because there are 2 persons rights at stake
No, they believe disabled men have a human right to sex.

Amnesty is not a humans rights organisation, it's a men's rights organisation.

Apileofballyhoo · 02/11/2020 19:23

Wouldn't give AI the steam off my piss. And I was a supporter for years. They can fuck off commenting on Ireland. What were they doing when women were in the fucking laundries? Or having their children taken from them?

m.independent.ie/irish-news/prison-officers-demand-guidelines-on-transgender-inmates-39637102.html

GrumpyMiddleAgedWoman · 02/11/2020 19:19

I don't give money to Amnesty any more.

How they can sit there watching a bloody great breach in safeguarding being cranked wide open and say, 'Nah, s'all fine, stop fussing', is completely beyond me.

Its the attitude of 'Yeah, fuck women: fuck their safety in prison, their privacy in changing rooms, their chance of winning in sports' that pisses me off.

The arrogance is breathtaking.

ThousandsAreSailing · 02/11/2020 19:12

Amnesty also believe disabled people have a human right to sex. Do Amnesty also believe anyone's right to sex depends on a willing partner? No person has the right to sex because there are 2 persons rights at stake

3timeslucky · 02/11/2020 19:05

In countries where self-identification is already the process (Argentina, Ireland) the policy has had absolutely no impact on anyone other than trans people, making their lives easier

That makes my blood boil.

The only reason they think that the situation in Ireland has "no impact on anyone other than trans people" is because trans people are the only ones they've looked to in informing this viewpoint. Why are groups like the LGB Alliance (in Ireland) being formed? Why are groups like The Countess Didn't Fight For This! and RadCailini emerging if it isn't to voice the impact on women? Why did Donal O'Shea (probably Ireland's leading endocrinologist) raise questions about the approach being taken by the approach being taken to medicalisation of children by the Tavistock staff the HSE employs? Why were those concerns not minuted by the HSE? Why did the HSE choose to remove the word women from information promoting a women's medical service (CervicalCheck)? No impact on anyone but trans people? I don't think so.

Be very clear, the people of Ireland, the women of Ireland, we were not asked how we felt about Self-ID, we were not asked to point out the pitfalls and we have not been asked how it impacts us.

Amnesty knows fuck all about this. And cares even less.

Dontbeme · 02/11/2020 19:05

@ShagMeRiggins

SWIW?
Sex work is work

I just shivered even typing that.

testing987654321 · 02/11/2020 19:02

They are saying they are disputing that men will want access to places where women are vulnerable.

Snap datum, I made exactly the same point (not as clearly though!)

ShagMeRiggins · 02/11/2020 18:58

SWIW?