Toilet provision for men and women: call for evidence - Government Consultation

Thanks Gardenbird

Ps. I bloody hate that the cleaners are always male now. Why???

I queried it with a chain that runs service stations and just got a bland “We employ the best person for the job” response.

Using Service Station loos at night time when the toilets are virtually abandoned apart from a man with a mop can be very unsettling. In on occasion the “cleaner” seemed to be a random bloke slowly and interminably washing his hands at the sinks. Other staff assured me he was a Cleaner when I told them about it, which was even more worrying.

Done. Thanks for the link and the bump

@OfInvention is there anything you would add to the Fair Play for Women info?

fairplayforwomen.com/male-free-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

(I can’t actually get to that page - FPFW site thinks I am a Robot and when I enter the correct codes in the captcha box it says they are incorrect.)

Have just started another thread in Chat to reach a wider audience, and included a link.

With regard to the single-sex exemption, I pointed out that having been attacked in the past, I had reason to object to the presence of a male-born person when I was undressed and vulnerable in an enclosed space.

On the subject of design I said the traditional single-sex public loo rows of toilet cubicles plus communal washbasins was a good use of space. But where possible there should also be at least one private cubicle with washbasin (in case of bloody-mess incidents), as well as a larger one for people with disabilities. All within the single-sex area, so people with disabilities have the same chance to be among their own sex.

Outside the single-sex areas, at least one gender-neutral cubicle with washbasin should be provided for anyone who wants to use it. And a large cubicle would be useful for people with children.

Right. Now I'm having a

Done it. The only technical thing I focused on was the difference between sex and gender, and that the Equality Act 2010 allows for single-SEX facilities where they're needed, eg toilets.

The introduction to the consultation sounds surprisingly aware of women's needs:
www.gov.uk/government/consultations/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence/toilet-provision-for-men-and-women-call-for-evidence#contents

It says "In recent years, there has been a trend towards the removal of well-established male-only/female-only spaces when premises are built or refurbished, and they have often been replaced with gender-neutral toilets. This places women at a significant disadvantage."
and
"The government’s position is also of the view that there needs to be proper provision of gender-specific toilets for both men and women, with a clear steer in building standards guidance."

That's great, but watch out for the slippery word "gender-specific". I pointed out that, as 'gender' is often now used to mean something other than 'sex', any legislation has to make it clear that these are single-SEX spaces.

EA2010 Schedule 3 Part 7 Paragraph 27 says
at www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/schedule/3
A person does not contravene section 29, so far as relating to sex discrimination, by providing a service only to persons of one sex if
(a)any of the conditions in sub-paragraphs (2) to (7) is satisfied, and
(b)the limited provision is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim.

Sub-paragraph 6 is our friend here. It says if the circumstances are such that a person of one sex might reasonably object to the presence of a person of the opposite sex.

Thank you, Fair Play for Women. There's more at
fairplayforwomen.com/male-free-toilets-and-changing-rooms/

Phew. Can I have a cup of tea now?

Will definitely respond. One thing that never fails to annoy me is a “gender-neutral” facility with urinals. If it’s got urinals, it’s for men (and needs to be matched by a cubicle-only facility designated for women)! Any gender-neutral options should be additional (unless space constraints require

I have sent them an email with my opinion.

Hi Gardenbird and deltoids thanks for replying. Yes I could start a thread in chat but it would be my first ever mumsnet thread, I've no idea how to link to the government consultation, and I'm scared to death of buggering it up by saying the wrong thing lol. If anyone came back with questions I'd be absolutely lost. I know what I think but lack the in depth knowledge of regular FWR posters to explain it properly.

But I'm aware that this is just as much my responsibility as anyone else's so if no one else does it I will.

I've just sent a response. Thanks for the reminder. Critical we keep reminding them why we have single sex toilets in the first place!

Thanks for the reminder, I had forgotten to do this but will do now.

And yes, it’s worth starting a chat thread about this (by someone far more eloquent than me) as I reckon toilet provision, or the lack of will be a wider Mumsnet issue.

Thanks for bumping this. I have responded.

Hello 3bees and you make a good point - I’m sure mumsnetters more knowledgeable than me on the ways of the other boards can advise on posting elsewhere (I only got as far as FWR ).

women are doing alright now surely

That so reflects how I used to feel - I think I’ve been generally lucky (only really came across an issue when a more junior male team mate at work turned out to be paid more than ‘us girls’ - I put that down to my weaker negotiating skills ) but boy have I been disabused of that notion now!!

Anyway we will continue to do what we can. Are you up for starting this thread on the other board?

This consultation is definitely open to anyone who wants to respond.

Good article here:

www.conservativesforwomen.org/the-conservatives-must-recommit-to-single-sex-spaces-in-legislation

Firstly thank you so much to all the FWR posters who are working so hard to protect women's rights. It's my first post on fwr but I've been lurking for ages now and learnt a lot from you. Please be gentle with me lol as I'm just being honest!
When I first started looking at mumsnet it was purely for some light relief and I avoided the FWR boards as I thought they'd be too serious and 'women are doing alright now surely '. Fwr was literally the last board I looked at and then only because I was curious to find out what all this transpeak business was about.
I really had no idea that things were going backwards while I was daydreaming. I've since signed some petitions wrote to my mp etc and I will be responding to this survey. Once again thank you for giving me a much needed kick up the backside.
But I also think there must be so many people just like I was who don't bother with the FWR boards, and so won't be aware of this survey and so won't respond.
So my suggestion is maybe if a thread was started in say, chat , it would get far more traffic, more people would be aware of the problem, and hopefully more people would respond to the survey.
Apologies if this has already been suggested.

Thank you for the reminder. This one is important. Single sex toilets are the most common single sex space and the only one that most people (in normal circumstances) use everyday. They benefit all women, whether or not specifically vulnerable.

Bump. The deadline is 11.45 pm on 29 January 2021. It's really important to let the government know that single sex toilets matter and should not be replaced with gender neutral facilities.

I like the idea of having a gap at the bottom of the toilet door in case of people collapsing behind it. You can see it someone needs help. This, obviously, works only in women only toilets for women.

The closing date for this consultation is 11.45 pm on 29 January 2021. As I have been campaigning for improvements in publicly-accessible toilets since 1985, on a strictly voluntary basis, I have some "expert" knowledge with regard to the real needs of women and all other users I have already sent in my detailed response to the call for evidence.
In the Government press release I have read, it states "The review will look to gather views from all those interested as well as calling on the technical knowledge of industry experts".
I think it is very important that women's views are given proper consideration, as the insufficient provision of women-only toilets has such a negative effect on our health, social and work activities, and self-respect. Do we really want our daughters, grand-daughters and great-granddaughters accepting the poor conditions we have to experience?

The government review of toilet provision for men and women : this consultation closes on 29th January 2021.
To avoid any confusion: The Equality Act 2010 makes it very clear that it refers to sex as a protected characteristic. I quote:
"Sex - Legal Definition:
Part 2 (Equality Concepts), Chapter 1 (Protected Characteristics), Section 11
In relation to the protected characteristic of sex –
(a) A reference to a person who has a particular protected characteristic is a reference to a man or a woman
Explanation:
Sex is a protected characteristic and refers to a male or female of any age. In relation to a group of people it refers to either men and/or boys, or women and/or girls.

A comparator for the purposes of showing sex discrimination will be a person of the opposite sex. Sex does not include gender reassignment or sexual orientation."

So women and girls are legally entitled to have separate toilets. Anybody who says otherwise is simply not sticking to the principles set out in the Equality Act. In my opinion, if any organisation fails to provide separate toilet facilities for women, they are breaking the law.
Please make your views known to the government.
Technical issues can also be highlighted in response to this review.

I went to that site, but couldn't make out how they want to collect evidence. It says "Technical comments can be submitted to [email protected]" -- does that mean all comments? Why 'technical'? I was expecting some sort of questionnaire.